How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

Bear, the electorate (you included I believe) bought the line about getting brexit done. Nobody was forced to vote Tory, blaming the opposition is a cop out. You won.

You wanted remainers to move on but don't seem to be able to move on from Labour and the GE yourself.

It's really weird, on and on about Labour. I know it's been done to death but blimey these Tory voters are poor winners

And you think I'm a Tory voter. That's so fucking funny.

Just as funny bellini I'm Greenish and a Leaver - just not the London-by-Sea (Brightonish) version of Green.

I'm in the stalls watching but really just letting people get on with their assumptions about everything; as the Brexit progresses.

Nobody was forced to vote Tory, blaming the opposition is a cop out

Well they were really because the alternative was unthinkable

I would have preferred a virtual rerun of the referendum with 1 clearly leave party and 1 clearly remain. At least that way things would have been put to bed

Instead we had the former and a completely undefined mishmash of fairytale policies, more EU negotiations and another referendum

It’s not hard to see why the latter lost

I see this a lot.

The winners of the most recent seismic votes turn all the blame on the opposition.

Look what you made me do.

If only Cameron had run a better campaign. Actually scrap that, they blame Corbyn who neither called the referendum, led the remain campaign, or failed to win the vote of 65 percent of those who voted for his party at the last election (65 percent of Labour voters voted remain.)

They blame Hilary for Trump.

They blame Corbyn for Boris and what the future now holds.

Its very interesting.

I had plenty of alternatives that I could have voted for and with good resons to do so. It just so happens that I felt that 3 years of indeciveness were far more damaging than a majority Tory Govt pushing the Brexit through.

Therefore happy to cast my vote in that direction.

And will continue to consider where and why I cast my vote in whatever election I've a right to vote in - just as I always have.

It is malylis

enough there to keep psychologists going til the end of time

A measure of success to racists and those with insular tendencies will be seeing foreigners move out.

Ooh sharp intake of breath n all that but there are more people that think like that in this country than I’m comfortable with.

So from their point on view if Brexit results in less non white British living in this country, that’s a success to them. Like mystery says, once a person is of voting age etc etc.

I’m worried about racism- directly myself and for my ds btw.

Completely agree malysis. Fixating over broadband whilst brexit leads pissing billions of pounds away. Suggesting Labour government was unthinkable whilst not been able to think of any successes for brexit.

Its fine to be happy with how you cast your vote.

Just don't blame it in the opposition side.

What this allows people to do, is to absolve themselves of any negatives caused by the outcome of the vote, to take the blame away from those that they voted for, and lay it at the door of the defeated.

(65 percent of Labour voters voted remain.)

Incorrect statement. 60% of those who voted labour in 2017 also voted leave in 2016. That’s why labour got their worst results since 1935. They ignored their own voters.

My parents voted labour all their lives because they are from mining villages where voting for Conservatives is considered the be the same as scabbing. However, when Corbyn failed to back the referendum result of 2016 they immediately became Conservative voters. Many of their neighbours did the same.

Labour and LibDems tried to ignore the electorate because

They know better

And didn’t the electorate make them pay.

Labour thrashed and Jo Swinson lost her seat.

Democracy and the British bulldog spirit at its finest.

British bulldog spirit at its finest

Not an incorrect statement, its what the polling data showed, from numerous polls.

The difference is that Labour voters don't all live in Labour seats, or former labour seats.

In many former labour seats (and many didn't return thumping majorities for Labour in previous elections), if you took the standard Tory vote, the UKIP vote, and labour leavers all voting tory (35 percent of Labour voters) you suddenly have a majority for the tories.

The figures I used are correct.

Furthermore, if you make the assumption that the majority of those Labour voters who voted leave live in the former red wall seats, rather than the cities which still returned Labour MPs then it totally works out to be correct.

@MysteryTripAgain

You've confused voters with seats.

fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/

Not the same.

For every example of stoopid Brexit promise, I'm afraid you have to address equally stoopid ideas like free broadband for all.

Oh no we don't. Once the election was won, all the manifestos of the opposition parties are redundant and the paper might as well be used to line the cat litter tray. What the public wanted was the Tory manifesto, so we need to see these hospitals and more nurses, we need to see northern railways produced, and whatever else was in the manifesto.

So from their point on view if Brexit results in less non white British living in this country, that’s a success to them. Like mystery says, once a person is of voting age etc etc.

They are likely to be disappointed. Someone needs to replace these EU health care staff who are leaving.

You've confused voters with seats

It’s the seats that count in an election. Whether you look at % or seats leave has won twice. First in 2016 and again in 2019.

Twist the figures anyway which you like. The following is fact.

UK is leaving the EU.

Fixating over broadband whilst brexit leads pissing billions of pounds away.

Indeed. This is a particularly stupid line of argument.

I think the really key issue is that we don't know what the government really wants from Brexit, so it's hard to measure success against any formal policy objectives.

• it wants to diverge from EU regulations, but it doesn't.
• it wants lower immigration, but it also wants to remove the £30k earnings requirement and move to an Australian system, both of which would result in more immigration.
• it wants frictionless trade with NI but has just signed an WA that explicitly prevents this.

I could go on, but you get the drift.

Bear - I'd like to return to your 'make the most of' it argument. Here's some proposed legislation in Turkey which effectively legitimises child marriage and statutory rape. Women's Groups are opposing it at present. If the bill passes into law, should they then stop arguing about it and 'make the most' of it'?

Now do you understand the point I was making about apathetic acceptance vs resistance?

Dismissing the idiocy of the broadband bollocks is like Brexiteers dismissing the significance of tbe bus "No one believed it, it was just politicking " they say.
The point about the stupid broadband offer, particularly as it came from a party lead by a Lexiteer, is that this is what was left of any attempt to pause/amend Brexit. Ineffectual bollocks. We need to do better. And as the stupid broadband offer was only a couple of months ago, it's hardly ancient history. It demonstrates how shit opposition to this has become.

The op had asked a question about next steps - what do we look for to measure success or failure as we move to tbe next stage. Reasonable question.
With some posts on here we are into "if you aren't with us, you are against us" territory. It's no better than some of the stuff you have seen in the Arms. I've got bad news for many of you. Most people are sick to tbe back teeth of polarised whining. They have stopped listening.

I think the really key issue is that we don't know what the government really wants from Brexit, so it's hard to measure success against any formal policy objectives.
This has been the crux of the problem since June 2016. We don't know what the government wants from it and Leave voters apparently all voted for their own reasons - from 'I don't like ECJ'. to immigration, to a belief that we'd lost our sovereignty. IMO, they won't hold the government to account because they've 'won' and that's an end in itself to them. Therefore, I think the only measure we can use is one that looks at the campaign promises they made/the outcomes of those promises.

I agree. They need to deliver on some of the headline promises and pretend that they could only do it once out of the EU.
Rather than whining about how terrible an idea Brexit is, the task now is keep an eye on what is or isn't delivered. And challenge them on it.
Hardly passive acceptance, ffs.