How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

I am not going to take any promises Boris Johnson makes seriously. When we see the turf being cut for the 40 new hospitals, then yes, I might believe him.

Apparently, China is going to build a hospital in 6 days to tackle the Corona virus. They built one in 7 days to deal with SARS - so it can be done. I would be astounded if anything like this happened in the UK. After 5 years, shedloads of money will have been spent on management consultants, and smaller A & E's and Maternity hospitals closed in readiness - but no sign of anything new.

Of course Brexit affects me whether I’m moving or not. Brexit is the reason we are leaving the UK after living here since I was five years old. I went to school and Uni in the UK, got married and had my DC’s here. My work and friends are here. I’d like to leave now but it’s taking longer than planned for DH to close his GP surgery as there is no one to take it on so all the patients will need to make alternative arrangements. DC’s are also still in Uni here. We are lucky we have a choice, many don’t.

I'm also not going to stop 'going on about it' until clear benefits are seen

Fine - that’s entirely up to you but no one on this thread is interested in listening to it - aside from your fellow posters who are doing exactly the same thing

There’s places where such views are welcome - here’s not one of them - it’s not what the thread is about and it’s pointlessly boring

Mystery, if you actually bothered to address the key issues (car manufacturing for example) rather than spurious stuff like national pride I could start to take you seriously

My point is leave vote was based on many factors. Many of them emotional as opposed to jobs or economics. Remain supporters tried for three years to prove that Brexit would make people worse off, but leave supporters did not change their minds.

Again I would say that leave vote was based on:

Uncontrolled immigration
Dislike of being controlled by Brussels
UK is the third largest donor to the EU, but has a massive trade deficit with the EU.
Memories of WWII

You might think they are silly reasons, but you can’t prevent people from voting on such reasons.

Brexit has messed up my life and negatively impacted the lives of all of my family and friends to varying degrees. As yet I've seen not a single glimmer of a positive. I love my country but agree that there are plenty of areas for improvement - I don't see how leaving the EU will help though.

Is it any wonder that we shake our heads and ask why we're doing this? I get that you don't like being asked but if you came up with a decent explanation it would help to heal the rift. The continued 'we won so shut up and get behind us' doesn't help.

I would be delighted to be proved wrong and for Brexit to be wonderfully successful. How this would be measured though, I have no idea.

I get that this is repeating what has been said over the last 4 years but, to me, nothing has changed. No positives have emerged - if anything its looking more nonsensical than ever. Brexit is ridiculous.

You don't want to hear that? Tough.

Equally people cant complain when it is pointed out that brexit is a shower of shit built on a foundation of uninformed nonsense (lost sovereignty , uncontrolled immigration, WW2).

I doubt whether memories of WW2 informed many votes.

For anyone under 74 is nonsense because they weren't born, and even the 74 - 80 year olds were only small children at the time. I don't think many 3 year olds concern themselves with national or world politics.

I don't know whether it informed my then 93 year old MIL's vote, who was a young adult during the war, and was engaged in war work. She voted Remain.

Fine - that’s entirely up to you but no one on this thread is interested in listening to it

I think what you mean is yourself and mystery aren’t interested in listening to it.

Many other posters have tried to chip in with common sense observations, the vast majority which are simply ignored by you, OP, and all you can come out with is that we should all stop having an opinion and get behind Brexit because it’s what everyone wants🤔

Oh and BTW my father hated the Germans too and Japanese because of the War. He didn't vote because he was dead.

The test will be whether we feel there are improvements. Nothing much will happen on 1st February because of the transition. Things will hot up again towards the end of the year.

I get that you don't like being asked but if you came up with a decent explanation it would help to heal the rift

People don’t have to explain why they chose to vote leave. It’s called freedom of choice.

If voters change their minds in the future and vote differently that up to them. You can’t change their minds for them.

Many other posters have tried to chip in with common sense observations, the vast majority which are simply ignored by you, OP, and all you can come out with is that we should all stop having an opinion and get behind Brexit because it’s what everyone wants

I’m not ignoring posts which are actually on topic

I’m utterly fed up of all the whinging ones though

If more of you want to do that than don’t then I’ll leave you yo it

You don't want to hear that? Tough

UK is leaving the EU

You don’t want to hear that? Tough

God, this is like one of the old Brexit Arms threads with the OP saying who can post, what they can post, etc. So... let me address Bear's OP directly:
People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when
I expect them to deliver everything they promised and I expect them to deliver it quickly (let's say within two years max, and I think that's generous). Of course, they all promised different things, which is a slight problem. But, at the very least, let's see them deliver on the big promises, like money for the NHS, no detriment to industry or economy; a trouble-free free trade agreement with the EU (promised by Liam Fox), 'no downsides' (David Davis promised this one); 'no change to the border between NI and the Republic' (Gove).

They also promised:
More money for farmers
More money for scientists
The abolition of VAT on fuel and tampons
More money in our pockets
No EU beneficiaries will be worse off (eg universities, cultural organisations etc)
No short term economic disruption
No damage to EU trade
No need to adhere to EU rules

I expect nothing less than the above, but will still feel the loss of FOM as I'd hoped to retire to another EU country, which now looks unlikely/difficult/more costly.

People don’t have to explain why they chose to vote leave.

Did I say they did? I said it would help heal the rift.

My posts are not intended to change anyone's mind but I'm not going disappear to help you feel more comfortable.

I think what you mean is yourself and mystery aren’t interested in listening to it.
To be fair, I'm not interested in anything Mystery says, either, which can be summed up as blah blah losers consent blah immigration blah the war blah blah democracy blah champagne.

You don’t want to hear that? Tough

You seem to be making some strange assumptions. When have I said I don't want to hear about Brexit?

Did I say they did? I said it would help heal the rift

No it wouldn’t as whatever is said would be rubbished. As Bear has out there is more people who think leaving the EU is better than remaining.

To be fair, I'm not interested in anything Mystery says, either, which can be summed up as blah blah losers consent blah immigration blah the war blah blah democracy blah champagne

Nobody is forcing you to read posts on MN are they?

Bear, why not just completely ignore those saying "Brexit is shit" and only engage with those who are trying to engage with the topic.
You are just encouraging them by replying.
And anyway Brexit is brilliant.

When have I said I don't want to hear about Brexit?

You have already heard it.

The UK is leaving the EU in accordance with democracy.

Sorry Bear - I’ll whinge as much as I want! Brexit is already ruining lives and leave voters won’t spell out the benefits because there aren’t any. They just hide behind “I don’t have to explain why I voted leave “.

That Brexit is happening is good as it proves democracy prevails by honouring a majority vote. However, people can change their minds if they think Brexit has failed. But there lies the difficultly of measurement as Brexit means different things to people.

For me if UK expands its trade outside the EU then it is a success.

They just hide behind “I don’t have to explain why I voted leave “

Nobody has to explain why they voted whether it was leave or remain. It’s called freedom of choice.

If you are on the losing side you have to accept. Remember;

Losers consent = Democracy

If people think that Brexit is not working for them as individuals they can change their minds in the future and vote accordingly.

Article 49 provides the mechanism if UK want to apply to rejoin.

Nobody is forcing you to read posts on MN are they?
No. Why? Is someone forcing you?