How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

Mystery, since you are supposedly so in tune with leave voters and I am so out of touch why don't you tell me?

Ultimately it doesnt matter because the original point was about the future of the British car industry post brexit which cannot be swept under the carpet forever. Reality is going to bite at some point.

Brexit is a disaster until someone can provide the evidence that it isn’t

As Bear has pointed out Brexit means different things to different people.

Brexit has preserved democracy in that what people voted for is happening. If in the future people conclude it was not a good decision they can change their minds in future elections and vote for parties whose manifesto includes UK rejoining the EU.

No the only bitterness here is from those who wont accept that others will continue think brexit is a really shit idea. Despite attempts to police this thread and erase the last 4 years.

I’m not bitter about it, I actually feel quite sorry for those who feel the need to constantly repeat the mantra ‘Brexit is shit’ whilst posting the same tired old arguments - it makes you look completely out of touch with reality

It might be shit, it might not be but either way, it’s happening because your (in the wider sense) arguments failed to convince anyone to change their mind and more people wanted it than didn’t

Going back to my analogy about starting a thread about weddings and not expecting a lecture on divorce rates - On reflection I actually think some of you would probably do exactly that, such is your conviction about how right you are

The rest of us are just looking to the future and hoping for the best - anything else is pointless

So how do you explain why Sunderland, an area that depends a lot on Nissan, had such huge support for leaving the EU?

Easy - they are stupid - you might not like that but much like people who "give away" their pensions or savings via a simple scam telephone call, stupidity can run deep.

Also, many who voted leave had nothing to do with Nissan.

Asking people to vote on a complex issue such as leaving the EU, is akin to asking people to use google to learn how to do heart surgery.

Mystery, since you are supposedly so in tune with leave voters and I am so out of touch why don't you tell me?

Because people voted for Brexit based in many factors. I would say the key reasons were;

Uncontrolled immigration
National pride
Dislike of the EU
working class revolution. ie people tired of governments saying we know better

In Sunderland’s case it was heavily bombed during WWII and many evacuated. My father was one of them. He has had deep hatred for Germany ever since.

Easy - they are stupid

Just to prove my point 🤔

Boris make promises about the car industry. On 10 December he said his Brexit deal would leave existing trade regulations with the EU “perfect and intact.”

“So the zero-tariffs, zero quota arrangements that we have, the just-in-time supply chains - they will remain absolutely there, perfect and intact.”
He also said Nissan’s supply chains would be protected.

Easy - they are stupid

Another

I know better

Statement

The only qualification requirements to vote are to be over voting age and to turn up at the polling station.

Asking people to vote on a complex issue such as leaving the EU, is akin to asking people to use google to learn how to do heart surgery

But it is okay to ask them if they wanted to join the EU in the 70s?

National pride wont pay the mortgage.

To suggest voting for Old Etonians is working class revolution is truly Orwellian stuff. Not to mention hilarious.

What has Sunderland being bombed 70 odd years ago got to do with the local economy or car manufacturing today?

Can you not comprehend that electorates can make v poor decisions, led astray by populist politicians?

History would suggest otherwise.

I feel sorry for those living and working in the major car industry areas,

Oxford, with the BMW factory, neither voted Leave, nor returned Tory MPs - one Lab and one LibDem. It is also probably better able to weather any coming storm that the North East.

And before a Leaver or Mystery comes to tell us about over-capacity in the car manufacturing industry in Europe, which is true, why be the one to volunteer to lose your factory? Well, in Oxford, we didn't.

They weren't asked to join, they were asked if after being IN for 2 years, they wanted to stay.

But on your basic point, no, the decision should have been left to the elected Govt of the day.

ghost you may think the reasons mystery listed are ridiculous, irrelevant or even abhorrent - I certainly do - but the fact is they were some people’s reasons and you will never change that

At some point you’re going to have to stop whinging about it, learn to live with it and perhaps start to wonder why your (again in the wider sense) brilliantly clever counter arguments meant nothing to those people

Can you not comprehend that electorates can make v poor decisions, led astray by populist politicians?

And calling them ‘stupid’ achieves what exactly?

Bear, once again I'm not trying to change anything. I'm discussing brexit on a thread about brexit started by you!

But you’re not ‘discussing’ It, you’re continuing to tell those who wanted it that you know better than them and everything is going to be shit

but the fact is they were some people’s reasons and you will never change that

Correct. For some their wounds will never heal. Easy to say what happened 70 years ago doesn’t count when you were not personally affected at the time.

And calling them ‘stupid’ achieves what exactly?

Nothing

Because it is likely to be shit bear and all the complaints about being called stupid or odd reasoning (WW2) isn't going to change that.

It's seems that you don't actually want the likely consequences addressed. At what point do the cries of national pride end and addressing potential job losses start?

I’ll never understand why anyone voted leave but that’s something I’ll have to live with although I won’t accept it until I see the reasons and benefits. And no I won’t stop going on about it - it’s changing my life. As an EU citizen (and therefore unable to vote) but long time UK resident I’m stuck (until we finalise our move to Canada) with those decisions.

It's seems that you don't actually want the likely consequences addressed

Not on here I don’t if it is being done in an ‘I told you so’ kind of way about things which haven’t even happened yet

It’s not what the thread is about and it’s utterly tedious

Because it is likely to be shit bear and all the complaints about being called stupid or odd reasoning (WW2) isn't going to change that

Another

I know better

Statement

If you are not going to be affected however things turn out why are you bothered?

People can change their minds if they wish, but you are not entitled to tell them they have to change their minds.

I’m stuck (until we finalise our move to Canada) with those decisions

If you are planning to leave the UK what difference does Brexit make to you?

Mystery, if you actually bothered to address the key issues (car manufacturing for example) rather than spurious stuff like national pride I could start to take you seriously.

I can measure the success and failures of brexit on the car industry I cant do it based on a German bombing campaign in the 1940s.

I'm also not going to stop 'going on about it' until clear benefits are seen. The sector I work in has already been affected by the referendum result - specifically by the departure of highly-skilled EU employees - and Brexit hasn't even happened yet. I also reserve the right to describe as stupid anyone who voted Leave because of 'national pride' (or similar populist/abstract concepts) or because of so-called 'uncontrolled' immigration. Firstly, it was never 'uncontrolled' and, secondly, this country needs immigrants.
Mystery's 'working class revolution' nonsense is ridiculous, as has already been pointed out.