How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

And I think the perceived "othering " of large swathes of the UK is pretty dreadful too. Considering them stupid and suggesting that they don't know what's good for them, that is why we are here where we are.

Othering is a tool the right has always used, it is not exclusive to brexit.

Interesting though that the left get blamed for othering wrt brexit. Another example of how the tories/the right get a free pass.

It's as if the breaking point poster/citizens of nowhere never happened.

Pointing out that people are misinformed on brexit and that it is detrimental to their living standards certainly isn't othering.

I literally cannot believe that people are continuing to argue that Brits living in the EU will be the most affected by Brexit That's not actually what we said but anyhow!
Think of it this way. If you don't have a driving license and someone says you won't be able to get one, that would be annoying. If you use your driving licence for work and then it is taken away, wouldn't you say that is more than annoying?

Plus you seem to have a very old fashioned view of what it means to be an immigrant. Many people lead transnational lives and will also be affected by what happens to the UK economy - with the added bonus that they can't move back to the UK or be full citizens where they live.

And I think the perceived "othering " of large swathes of the UK is pretty dreadful too. Considering them stupid and suggesting that they don't know what's good for them, that is why we are here where we are.

I think in the future, when historians look back at this period, what you are saying will be well down the list of reasons of why we are here where we are.

Pointing out that people are misinformed on brexit and that it is detrimental to their living standards certainly isn't othering.

It is entirely pointless though

You ‘pointing this out’ didn’t change how they voted in the referendum or the last GE

At what point are you (not specifically just you but others like you) going to accept that you lost, twice, and that not enough people were convinced by your arguments

I genuinely do not understand what you hope to achieve by raking over old grounds and endlessly pursuing the ‘what ifs’

That's not actually what we said but anyhow!

That is ‘actually’ exactly what misti said

Pointing out that people are misinformed on brexit and that it is detrimental to their living standards certainly isn't othering

Yes it is. Same as saying;

“My judgement and opinion is better than yours”

No, it is saying that my information is more complete

Brexiters said that it would be the easiest deal in history
and there would be no down sides, only up before the vote
but three and a half years down the line
we have no trade deal
and there are no up sides

those who used information and evidence will be proved to be better assessors of the options
than those who went on feels

That is ‘actually’ exactly what misti said
Where? She says that Brits in the UK are most affected economically but not when it comes to rights. Please explain your reasoning.

I said yesterday bear it doesnt bother me, I will be largely protected from the worst effects of brexit. I believe brexit will hit leave voting areas in the north very hard. If people in those areas think otherwise that's their prerogative.

4 years in the benefits of brexit should be clear and the tories should have a roadmap to the bright future. These things haven't happened instead brexit will be swept under the carpet and the winners will play the victim (which is incredibly odd in itself - shouldn't they be celebrating?)

Judgement based on research trumps judgement based on tabloid editorials. Unless you subscribe to the brexiteer idea that the country is done with experts (classic othering eh?)

smemorata please read mistis post at 17.01 which said

The most-affected group in this whole sorry fuck-up are Britons in Europe

As has been pointed out, it isn’t a competition but if it were, Brits living in the EU would not win in terms of who is most affected by Brexit

Misinformed is such a polite word isn't it ? like there has been some silly misunderstanding. Prefer lie myself, although deceive comes a close second, with mislead bringing up the rear

No, it is saying that my information is more complete

OMFG - is there really no end to the arrogance of some people

There really is some kind of alternative universe where the hard core Remainers are still living

Has it really not dawned on you that it is precisely views like that which led to this situation?

Bearbehind
So, what ARE the positive of Brexit?

I will not give up on finding evidence that its a shit idea until I'm given evidence to the contrary.

Wanting evidence based decision making is
NOT
what got us into this mess.

Arrogant T-W-A-T Old Etonians and liars and breaches of data laws are what got us into this mess

Bear, you realise people were influenced by the 350 mil for the NHS, Turkey joining, EU armies and the decades of anti EU stories in the press

Let's not pretend that 30 million voters all marched to the polling station armed with impartial, sound, knowledgeable information on a very complex issue.

I think in order to answer that question you need to answer whether the EU has been a success or failure. After over 20 years I think that is a very open question. After all, we can have no idea how the different nations would be doing without the EU.

In addition not everyone will have the same metric. Some will be better off, some worse.

Can we measure, meaningfully, the success of any large political decision?

Bear, I think you have been too long in the corporate world, judging by the structure of your OP.

No, it is saying that my information is more complete

The only qualification required to vote is to be over voting age.

but three and a half years down the line
we have no trade deal

So far UK has secured about 20

and there are no up sides

That’s your opinion. Those who voted leave obviously thought otherwise.

.those who used information and evidence will be proved to be better assessors of the options
than those who went on feels

How people choose to vote is their right. There are no pre-qualifies to vote other than being over voting age

Let me get this straight, the opinion of people who lose their rights but don't suffer economic damage directly is as important as people who are likely to experience both. BUT, the opinion of people who are likely to suffer economic damage and who lose their rights ISN'T actually important because they are too ill-informed to make decisions anyway.

will not give up on finding evidence that its a shit idea until I'm given evidence to the contrary

Waste of time as people aren’t going to change their minds. Remain supporters have posted what they consider to be evidence that Brexit is guaranteed to be a failure for over three years, but it made no difference.

Arrogant T-W-A-T Old Etonians and liars and breaches of data laws are what got us into this mess

Again an opinion as opposed to a demonstrable fact.

Let's not pretend that 30 million voters all marched to the polling station armed with impartial, sound, knowledgeable information on a very complex issue

Where in the law does it say that voters have to do that? I thought the only qualification to vote was to be over voting age and to be bothered to turn up?

There are people on this thread who;

-Dislike leavers knowledge being questioned.
-Believe themselves that brexit will be economically damaging.

Surely voting for something that makes you poorer would be a shortsighted thing to do and therefore these posters must believe leavers were poorly informed?

BUT, the opinion of people who are likely to suffer economic damage and who lose their rights ISN'T actually important because they are too ill-informed to make decisions anyway

That’s what it sounds like.

Don't get me wrong, I voted Remain and think it's a load of shit. But it's what we have to live with. The sooner we face it, and face up to why people voted for it - saying "they were conned and I'm too clever to be conned" isn't facing up to it, the better.

Honestly this is like some weird parallel universe where those who generally frequent the WM threads have come here to vent their anger about Brexit as if it was actually going to make any difference

It really can’t be good for people’s mental health to be so detached from the reality of where we now are