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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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Thread gallery
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mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 22:07

what made Cameron preferable to Brown or Milliband?

The 'Conservatives-are-the-default' mindset among English voters.

Also the preference for a bluff, strident, say-it-like-it-is John Bull type 'character' that allowed Margaret Thatcher and Boris Johnson alike to rise as far as they did and stick around as long as they did (I suspect BJ will have a fairly long tenure, sadly). John Major lacked this though he had many good qualities in a politician. None of the Labour leaders have had this. Brown came closest but his presentation lacked the OTT outrageousness, the type of 'charisma' (for want of a better word) that seems to appeal in England.

The Labour Party will only be voted in when complete and utter disillusionment with the Tories sets in and they have no caricaturish leader to capture the English imagination, and even then Labour will govern on borrowed time.

derxa · 02/01/2020 22:17

Also the preference for a bluff, strident, say-it-like-it-is John Bull type 'character' that allowed Margaret Thatcher and Boris Johnson alike to rise as far as they did and stick around as long as they did (I suspect BJ will have a fairly long tenure, sadly). John Major lacked this though he had many good qualities in a politician. None of the Labour leaders have had this. Brown came closest but his presentation lacked the OTT outrageousness, the type of 'charisma' (for want of a better word) that seems to appeal in England. There is so much wrong with this I can't even begon...

derxa · 02/01/2020 22:18

*begin

Frankiestein402 · 02/01/2020 22:33

I suspect BJ will have a fairly long tenure, sadly
I really don't expect him to still be pm in Jan 21 - there isn't a cat in hells chance he won't make multiple serious blunders through the year - he'll be sheltered from some, but enough will surface to make him toxic to the 1922 - and that's without stuff coming out of the woodwork.
As for Cummings versus the civil service/judiciary - they coped with Wilson, Thatcher and Blair - they'll soon see him off

Dusty01 · 02/01/2020 23:31

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/02/dominic-cummings-calls-for-weirdos-and-misfits-for-no-10-jobs

What will this mean? It's funny but also scary.

RoddySnapper · 02/01/2020 23:39

He seems to want neuro diverse people who struggle through standard recruitment - less totalitarian cheerleading PoMo graduates who breeze through HR.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2020 23:45

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7846459/amp/Im-pansexual-says-Lib-Dem-leader-Layla-Moran.html?__twitter_impression=true
'I'm pansexual': Lib Dem would-be leader Layla Moran reveals she is in a lesbian relationship - five years after leaving boyfriend who she admitted slapping

In identity politics top trumps we now have Layla who isn't just a woman.

Nope she's a Palestinian woman.

And nope she's not just a Palestinian woman. She's an LGBT Palestinian woman.

Personally I'm not interested in her identity anymore than I'm interested in her cooking ability or her flaming shoes.

I'm interested in her critical thinking skills, demonstrating good judgement and leadership qualities...

Layla Moran's girlfriend Rosy Cobb was at the centre of a controversy during the general election campaign when the Liberal Democrats became embroiled in a row over a faked email and legal threats to journalists.

Miss Cobb, then the Lib Dems' head of media, was suspended after the party's press office was accused of altering emails.

The political website Open Democracy ran a story in mid-November claiming that the Lib Dems had sold supporters' data to the Remain campaign during the Brexit referendum.

The Lib Dems started a legal fight with the website, arguing that they had sent a statement which had not been used. Open Democracy maintained that it had not received one.

The party forwarded an email they claimed had been sent – but the date it carried was the day before the request for comment had been made.

Miss Cobb was suspended pending a full investigation. She has now left the party.

bangs head on wall repeatedly

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malylis · 02/01/2020 23:46

It means he wants people in his own image, or what he thinks is his own image.

Imagine thinking you are an outsider and challenger to the establishment when you are the scion of a wealthy family who was public school and Oxbridge educated who had worked in politics and policy setting all your life.

7Days · 02/01/2020 23:50

We used to call globalisation neo-liberalism, iirc.

7Days · 02/01/2020 23:52

Wokeness is a rot to a lot of people.
Its irritating at the very least.

Dusty01 · 02/01/2020 23:53

It's very confusing.

If this was the truth of it- that Cummings wants neuro diverse people who struggle through standard recruitment - less totalitarian cheerleading PoMo graduates who breeze through HR. - then I'd be quite pleased.

But I think this is more likely It means he wants people in his own image, or what he thinks is his own image.

And the following occurred to me straight away ...

Imagine thinking you are an outsider and challenger to the establishment when you are the scion of a wealthy family who was public school and Oxbridge educated who had worked in politics and policy setting all your life.

He must literally be deluded or more likely mad. Why are we letting madman run our country?

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2020 23:57

He wants people like DH to set fire to the civil service and get rid of those people who are 'comfortably waiting out their pension' and fit in rather than having fresh ideas and a work ethic.

He might struggle to find the right people with that job advert though. It's liable to attract nutters and he won't have a filter to sift out the good people from those who are just anti establishment dick heads.

I know people like he's going after - I wouldn't call them neuro diverse particularly. Just people who don't think the same as everyone else all the time and aren't afraid to do so. It's the out of the box thinkers.

He's looking at bringing in people you might think fit the classic entrepreneur stereotypes in a new sector - government - particularly those with techy knowledge.

IMHO it could work. It could also backfire spectacularly. It's a high risk strategy.

Either way it highlights his ambition to completely restructure and gut the Civil service.

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malylis · 02/01/2020 23:58

globalisation is not globalism they are linked but not in the way that the anti globalists talk of it.

Essentially globalism conspiracies are rehashes of the protocols of the elders of zion, shady individuals with no country loyalty aiming to start a one world government to the detriment of "the people".

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2020 00:03

BTW anyone remember the LD media head who tried to fake emails and got caught and was suspended by the party?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/01/LIB-DEMS-SUSPEND-CAMPAIGNER-OVER-APPARENT-EMAIL-FORGERY

Turns out she's Layla Moran's other half...

Not a terribly good look.

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Dusty01 · 03/01/2020 00:03

RTB - I can't work out whether it's sort of exciting - or worrying. Probably I should just forget about it and it may all come to nothing much anyway.

Did you mean your husband when you said DH? If so, will he be applying for this job?

RoddySnapper · 03/01/2020 00:09

Layla Moran looked into her soul - nothing to be concerned about the potential new leader of the Liberal democrats.

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2020 00:43

The civil service pay peanuts. And therein lies your problem.

Cummings is probably doomed to fail on that score tbh.

The type of person he's looking for, ultimately doesn't exist...

... If they have the experience he needs and is looking for then the wages available in London are simply not up to the market rate.

... If they don't have the experience, then they don't have the qualities he's ultimately looking for.

Given what Cummings himself is paid (and baring in mind London rates of pay and the hours he's looking for people to put in) there's a gap in his thinking.

Cummings is 48 years old and above the generational economic split age - where if you are above you are financially much better placed. And that's perhaps what's missing from his thought process.

The civil service isn't attracting talent, in the way it might have done 30 or 40 years ago. Why?

It's not just an Oxbridge issue. Talent doesn't work for government because the working conditions and pay are shite.

He might fill up a bunch of junior positions, but above that? Mid level? High level? It's either people who have wealth behind them in some way or complete wildcards and utter chancers who are likely to be what he ends up with. The word competent isn't one that necessarily features highly here.

If he wants good techies (which certainly is one of the groups he is looking for) then market rates are going to feature here. A lot of tech companies are more 'out of the box' in thinking and structure already. (Neuro diverse were the words used above - I note the white male problem in tech which Cummings is liable to replicate with job ads like that too. I don't think it is likely to strike much of a chord with those from a variety of classes and backgrounds... )

Talented individuals who do like a bit of chaos and to shake things up and are good at it (and more to the point have been proven to be) even if they like the idea of the job, won't follow it through because of the money.

So in terms of being able to achieve things?

He needs a handful of people to potentially do it and make it actually work in practice. But that's still a handful who are going to be very very hard to recruit.

This is where moving parts of Whitehall out of London makes much more sense. You can recruit more for your money and get that diversity of thought you are looking for. Civil service jobs have increasingly self selected because of who can afford to take a chance and live in London on wages which aren't competitive.

As it goes DH is of the opinion that Cummings ultimate goal is to gut Whitehall to 'fix' the UK. But thinks he's a lunatic in the manner he's trying to go about doing it... And DH is a chaos lover.

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Dusty01 · 03/01/2020 00:50

I like a bit of chaos too RTB. So long as whoever's in charge can ultimately keep things a bit together.

Thank you for that all that explanation. It's fascinating and in a strange way reassuring.

malylis · 03/01/2020 00:57

Chaos is not good for government though, managed change is.

Right there is Cummings failure to understand how things actually work. Creative destruction only really works when its done new entrants into an established market, running the government doesn't fit this bill at all. To have chaos and C.D you need to have consumers not dependents.

Whitehall doesn't pay peanuts, Cummings is on a lower amount than other SPADS because he can afford to be.

SwedishEdith · 03/01/2020 01:03

The civil service pay peanuts.

He's not recruiting a civil servant, certainly not via a gmail account.

Miljea · 03/01/2020 01:21

I just had a glance at The Other Place, for balance and perspective....

I hurried back! 😊 Gosh, what an odd echo-ey place it has become! Does anyone challenge any Leave stuff there, anymore? I stopped a while back, as it's pointless and opposition = bullying. Apparently.

I think Cummings is on a hiding to nothing. I suspect his recruitment drive will at best result in some dodgy decisions. We are not at that 'outside the box' stage, by a long chalk. The Civil Service need grey blokes who understand the system right now, not wild cards.

mathanxiety · 03/01/2020 01:34

Essentially globalism conspiracies are rehashes of the protocols of the elders of zion, shady individuals with no country loyalty aiming to start a one world government to the detriment of "the people".

Agree.

mathanxiety · 03/01/2020 01:36

Please try, Derxa.

mathanxiety · 03/01/2020 01:52

I really don't expect him to still be pm in Jan 21 - there isn't a cat in hells chance he won't make multiple serious blunders through the year - he'll be sheltered from some, but enough will surface to make him toxic to the 1922 - and that's without stuff coming out of the woodwork.

You mean on top of the stuff that is already widely known about him? His history as mayor of London, the trail of chaos in the wake of his many relationships, his job history including being fired for lying, his performance as Foreign Secretary, the alienation of an entire section of the Conservative Party when he got rid of the Remainer opposition within the party, a certain bus with a massive lie emblazoned on it, plus the outright hatred of probably every single NHS employee - and off the top of my head I can't think of more but I am sure there is more that someone else can think of.

The 1922 Committee cares only about winning elections, and the Conservatives are currently sitting on an 80 seat majority.

mathanxiety · 03/01/2020 02:13

It strikes me that the Unabomber fits the profile set forth by Dominic Cummings in his ad for VERY clever people.

The list of papers the successful candidates will be perusing as part of the job is one that would interest Orwell and Huxley.

"Complex Contagions : A Decade in Review, 2017". This looks at a large number of studies on ‘what goes viral and why?’.

And there is more in that vein.

The sheer grandiosity of it all just leaps from the page. Looking for the rarest of the rare, the weirdest of the weird... Anyone applying would have to be able to get past the feeling that they are joining a cult with a very strange man who has very strange notions about himself at its head. People as far up their own backsides, or further, as Cummings is, people who like the idea of a little club for the very brilliant, operating in the smoky backrooms.