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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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frumpety · 03/01/2020 07:24

America have killed Iranian general Soleimani in Iraq.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 08:14

red To attract the people he wants at civil servie pay, he would have to jump them in at top civil service grades and even then they'd have to be boy wonders
e.g. that 30-year-old who was supposed to be the "Brain of Brexit" in the DexEU ... and left last year

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 08:15

He'd only get a couple of years work out of each, before they move on

Catsingangs · 03/01/2020 08:16

I just had a glance at The Other Place, for balance and perspective....

I hurried back! 😊 Gosh, what an odd echo-ey place it has become! Does anyone challenge any Leave stuff there, anymore? I stopped a while back, as it's pointless and opposition = bullying. Apparently.

In my mind's eye, that place reminds me of the 'estate' pub I used to sometimes visit with a local mate. It was fine if you went there with a 'local', and didn't disrupt or disagree with the diatribe of the 'local regulars'. If you went there on your own or with some outsiders, the atmosphere was loaded with hostility and aggression.

I was talking to someone over NYE and the chat led to talk of these kind of estate pubs. Summing it up nicely, my colleague talked of always avoiding 'flat roof pubs'. The ones on the 70's estates where they built a locals pub in the same style as the new houses, but put a flat roof bit around the ground floor to provide the bar area.

That's how I picture the 'other place'.

Xenia · 03/01/2020 08:24

Most people (and I) will thikn it is a really refreshing ad, not least because if you turn out useless you will be immediately out on your ear etc.

GaspodeWonderCat · 03/01/2020 08:38

Trump bombs Iraq airport, Iranian General (and others) killed. Tensions rising.

Gulf war III starting soon? And will UK follow US into regional conflict (yes). No choice now. Rest of EU will stay out.

]]www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/03/baghdad-airport-iraq-attack-deaths-iran-us-tensions]]

DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 08:45

Talking of ideology over effectiveness, I recently binge watched an interesting series: "War Factories".

One thing which was repeatedly cited as why We Won and They Lost was the degree to which ideology was allowed to trump necessity.

The basic premise of the series was that the Allies victory was pretty much a given the moment we were able to make shit faster than the Axis (Germany, really) powers.

Nazi industrial production was hampered by cronyism, that weird eco-vibe they had which preferred handmade to machine made (really). And most crucially an intense dislike of "Jewish" mass production methods.

All in all it was an interesting angle of discussion.

Meanwhile, the US was hiring the best and simply outproducing Germany in ever-astonishing ratios.

thecatfromjapan · 03/01/2020 09:17

Well.

I'm pretty depressed this morning.

I'm guessing the U.K. will end up standing up as a ' steadfast ally' of the US.

And we'll have the added joy of watching the EU stand back.

Another Brexit gift.

Motheroffourdragons · 03/01/2020 09:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

AuldAlliance · 03/01/2020 09:23

Distraction from impeachment and a nice little war in the run-up to the US elections. With the UK alongside.
The script never really changes, no matter how trite and tragic it is.

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 09:26

And we have yet to have the pleasure of that idiot Corbyn siding with Iran on behalf of Her Majesty's Official Opposition.

This could be the moment for BJ to play his Love Actually card.

What are the chances?

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 09:28

One More Time:

thecatfromjapan · 03/01/2020 09:31

🤦‍♀️ @Mockers. That would, indeed, be a cherry on the Awful cake.

thecatfromjapan · 03/01/2020 09:32

No, I can't see any way for Johnson to move the U.K. away from the US here.

Alsohuman · 03/01/2020 09:32

Most people (and I) will thikn it is a really refreshing ad, not least because if you turn out useless you will be immediately out on your ear etc

Most people I know think it’s fucking terrifying, even those most critical of the civil service. Unfortunately I don’t think money will be a constraint, the kind of geeks he’s after don’t tend to be motivated by money.

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 09:33

A sickly artificial glace cherry on a shitcake, but yes.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/01/2020 09:44

Trump and Iran- and of course the impeachment and looming election are at the very least factors in dictating the response.

Cummings-despite being from a wealthy family, & being public school & Oxbridge educated he has a huge chip doesn't he? Resulting from his failures and months (?) of unemployment. Obviously feels he is the underdog who struggled compared to his peers. Is he neurodiversity dyslexia because GCHQ actively recruit dyslexic individuals as proven to think in a more innovative way.

All this presupposes that the 'problems' with the U.K. emanated from civil servants not too many years of me first Tory government.

independent article on dyslexic recruitment in October 2019

howabout · 03/01/2020 09:47

Jon Trickett
@jon_trickett
·
55m
"So Dominic Cummings has decided to be a caricature of one of the people in The Thick of It. He wants “weirdos and misfits” to work in No 10. But.... isn’t the govt already full of those kind of people? Look round the cabinet table".

Problem for Mr Trickett is he could equally say exactly the same about the PLP and even more so its advisers and the wider Labour Party.

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 09:56

There is a good argument for more specialists in the home civil service, but this same Cummings is the man who helped Gove do so much to undermine 'experts' at Education in favour of his own personal prejudices, even to the extent of having set books removed from the syllabus because he, Gove, did not like them.

squid4 · 03/01/2020 09:59

It feels like there will never be good news again.

Im mostly thinking about Australia at the moment. It was the 25th story on the daily mail website yesterday (I counted). Murdoch press has elected these horrific people and will keep them in power even as we literally burn.

Oh yay, a war! Thank god we don't have a Trump lackey for a PM... oh wait.

When is the fucking revolution, I'm completely up for it.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/01/2020 10:02

Good point. You'd think if neurodiversity was so celebrated then there'd be more support in schools under the new regime - rather than less.

The retro insistence on rote learning of times tables and moves away from coursework to written exam marathons don't exactly promote an way path for the neurodiverse. ( I know as I'm the parent of one.)

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 10:03

On the plus side, this will be the decade when the dirty digger croaks. And the kids are all talentless morons who will be defenistrated in swift order by the shareholders when it happens.

CrunchyCarrot · 03/01/2020 10:17

America have killed Iranian general Soleimani in Iraq.

Gee thanks, Trump. Not. Angry This will kick off a huge shit storm and the most likely people to suffer will be the innocents, not people like Trump!

Frankiestein402 · 03/01/2020 10:25

For several years now central government IT has followed the 'digital first' mantra and has contracted various snake oil merchants (aka Cummings target hires) to run major change programmes - in some cases these made superficial progress because they did simple visible stuff - but the rest of the icebergs were scarcely touched and several £billion has been "spaffed" away

ie the civil service has tried to do things very differently under ministerial directive and failed - hard things don't get easier by directive - ask ids, but don't expect an honest answer

(I've done enough major projects in both public and private sector to know that the private sector doesn't have any magic bullets here - its just easier for them to hide failures )

TheElementsSong · 03/01/2020 10:27

Just what we need. A diversionary US-UK dick-swinging war for overgrown school bullies, while the world burns. These Sunlit Uplands are really grotesque.