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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
prettybird · 03/01/2020 10:29

The sad but unsurprising fact is that we predicted this SadAngry

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 10:37

PM on hols probably too drunk to pick up the phone.

Raab C Nitwit says we should de-escalate, but UK forces are put on alert, maybe for defensive reasons.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/01/2020 10:38

Let's also just spare some thoughts today also for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and her husband, daughter and parents.

Motheroffourdragons · 03/01/2020 10:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 10:45

I imagine the price of oil was getting too cheap.

Again.

Motheroffourdragons · 03/01/2020 10:45

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

thecatfromjapan · 03/01/2020 10:49

Cummings is another useful idiot who is being used to dismantle governance in the U.K.

Mockers, yes - good news re Murdoch.

Squid This is the revolution. Thing is, it's hard right, populist, (in national terms) and about destabilisation in international terms.

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 10:49

Iran is not a conventional regime. Different power centres act as they think fit. The Revolutionary Guards will seek revenge regardless of what the govt or defence ministry wants. They will want to kill Americans. Any Americans will do. The govt. may want to steer this toward Israel which currently has a precarious power vacuum, which will bring them wider support from the usual suspects.

The Russians won't want escalation, but will not stop Hezbollah other Iran proxies under their sight.

Sarajevo 1914 and all that. Bad Bad Bad.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/01/2020 10:53

I know we are swapping between Iran and Cummings advertisement...

On the advert- Call me old fashioned. Surely the time to invite economists, policy experts, project managers and researchers to apply for Downing Street jobs was to make a plan BEFORE messing with the economy? Before driving the departure from a lucrative trading bloc?

Cummings wouldn't be inviting one-page emails with ideas if had sufficient ideas of his own.

Also why are all the jobs applications to be sent to an unofficial gmail account - [email protected] - with the subject line “Job”.

What advantage does that give - circumventing the usual civil service checks and balances?

DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 10:57

What advantage does that give - circumventing the usual civil service checks and balances?

It's probably an inertia thing. By the time the court case has happened which decides that an official communication is an official communication, it's another year gone.

One thing I think Cummings et al have twigged is that it's possible to move faster than the law. Those of us of a certain age can recall how long it tool the law to catch up with video recordings.

Peregrina · 03/01/2020 10:59

I am just going to throw out a contentious idea here - wasn't the Civil Service Fast Stream rather dominated by the 'right sort' of people from Public Schools? I know they were/are politicians rather than Civil Servants, but do we really need more people out of the same mould as Cameron, Osborne, Johnson and Rees-Mogg?

squid4 · 03/01/2020 11:01

This isn't a revolution. This is just billionaires making money while we burn.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/01/2020 11:03

I suppose the good thing is that if they're advertising for economists:

  1. Experts are back in vogue.
  1. The holes in ERG visions from people like Shanker Singham etc must now be visible? Ditto Crawford Falconer & the other Institute of Economic Affairs think tank lot?
malylis · 03/01/2020 11:03

Very good point about Cummings rejecting expert opinions.

All of it goes to show really that my disaster capitalism predictions were correct.

squid4 · 03/01/2020 11:03

I assumed Murdoch would be replaced by someone much the same when he died. Is this not the case?

malylis · 03/01/2020 11:05

The empire will be broken up and sold off.

ContinuityError · 03/01/2020 11:05

I imagine the price of oil was getting too cheap.

US is close to becoming a net energy exporter - nice little upswing in oil prices will nudge the fracking industry in the right direction.

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 11:08

Also brilliant timing to do this on the eve of Friday prayers in Tehran.

Best since Arthur Scargill called a coal strike in the spring.

Think this might deserve its own thread.

ListeningQuietly · 03/01/2020 11:29

(a) Layla Moran makes the Libdems seem even more like fruitcakes
(b) Trump starts WW3
(c) Australia is burning
(d) Cyprus overrides the law to get Israeli gas deal through

I shall go and transplant fruit bushes
its the only sane thing to do

Alsohuman · 03/01/2020 12:05

Cummings is another useful idiot who is being used to dismantle governance in the U.K

I don’t think it’s Cummings who’s the useful idiot, that’s Johnson.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 12:16

"Most people (and I) will think it is a really refreshing ad, not least because if you turn out useless you will be immediately out on your ear etc"

Much more likely that Cummings will turn out useless

If you read any of his ravings on his blog, or some of his unofficial statements,
he sounds a typical impractical fantasist with totally inadequate plans or ability to turn his fantasies into reality

Normally such fantasists sink deeper into obscurity, but occasionally one will attract the attention of those who want to make use of them

Remember, he is not a member of the Tory party, never has been afaik, but he is tearing down the Conservative doctrines of decades - and wants to tear down all UK institutions too - in pursuit of his nihilist dreams

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 12:20

"Problem for Mr Trickett is he could equally say exactly the same about the PLP and even more so its advisers and the wider Labour Party."

Yes, Corbyn and the hard left are mostly a bunch of weirdos, which the voters didn't trust
So they voted for a posh set of weirdos instead

Posh weirdos = loveable British eccentrics
mc weirdos = rich elite citizens of nowhere
wc weirdos = hooligans

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 12:24

"(d) Cyprus overrides the law to get Israeli gas deal through"

What is it with Cyprus and Israel ... and / or Cyprus and Britain ? Hmm

Cyprus lock up a British victim of gang rape while her rapists celebrate in Israel with dancing and singing "suck dick, British whore"

SwedishEdith · 03/01/2020 12:47

Saw speculation that Cummings possibly failed to get on to the Fast Stream programme. Fast Stream recruitment is blind, of course, in an effort to try not to recruit in its own image. The irony being that DC is specifically trying to recruit in his own perception of his own image. He's also very like Pete North.

Johnson is not so much the useful idiot as bone idle (Xenia should agree that he should be turfed out). He's installed someone to do all of his thinking - but didn't really think about what he'd do. It's like HAL in 2001.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 13:31

Jess Phillips poised to enter Labour leadership contest

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/03/jess-phillips-poised-to-enter-labour-leadership-contest

The Birmingham Yardley MP will join Emily Thornberry < 🤮 > and Clive Lewis as confirmed candidates.

Others including Rebecca Long Bailey < 🤮 >, Keir Starmer < yay ! > and Lisa Nandy are expected to join the race formally in the coming days.

Phillips was first elected to parliament in 2015.
She has achieved prominence with her campaigning on equality issues and tackling violence against women and has at times been a fierce critic of the party’s direction.

Jeremy Corbyn announced in the aftermath of last month’s election defeat that he would stay on for a “period of reflection”.

The party’s ruling national executive committee (NEC) will meet on Monday to set the timetable for the contest,
which is expected to be completed by the end of March.