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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 20:19

BJ is very pro-immigration, going by most of his record

  • because business wants easy access to the workers they need, of the right type -
but he has managed to persuade many voters he'll cut immigration.

He is very deceitful, even for a politician.

In the ref campaign, he whipped up the fear of Turkey joining the EU - not going to happen for decades, until they return to secular democracy -
yet he has been advocating that the EU let in Turkey and criticising the EU for refusing !

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 20:21

BigChocFrenzy Wed 01-Jan-20 10:16:59

I hope that joining Trump's wars for oil and distraction is not the agreed price for a US FTA after Brexit

The armed forces member I mentioned upthread will be shipping out by Sunday at the latest.

dreichnolonger · 02/01/2020 20:22

One of things I really dislike about Johnson is that he says things that I don't think he actually even particularly believes.
I found May's narrow minded racism very unattractive but I did think she believed it.
Johnson says even worse stuff but I get the sense it is all just playing to whatever particular crowd he is in front of.
Or he tries to be clever and writes stuff like the pillar box article, seemingly liberal but full of memorable racist little quips, which are what people actually remember.

RoddySnapper · 02/01/2020 20:26

BigChocFrenzy

Flowers
malylis · 02/01/2020 20:48

Math: Its strange how all the people howling about antisemitism in the Labour party fail to notice though.

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 20:50

ListeningQuietly Wed 01-Jan-20 19:50:11

The US Census of 2020 may well yield similarly inaccurate results, for the same Hostile Environment reason and also because funding has been cut.

OP ed piece from 2017:
www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2017/08/31/the-2020-census-may-be-wildly-inaccurate-and-it-matters-more-than-you-think/

It matters so much that government and business know who is out there.

It's almost as if someone wants to destroy the country and foment some sort of mass disaffection with government, the constitution, and the institution of the state for some reason. Someone who doesn't believe in government.

ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 20:50

Alsohuman
Cummings is a very dangerous man.
Anybody who underestimates his loathing of the bureaucracy that keeps our country running smoothly is a fool.

ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 20:53

I find the idea of a Globalist surreal.
I know of nobody who does not have some sort of loyalty to where they or their children or their parents were born.

There are people who think that they are above national rules

  • I know somebody who flies intercontinental once a fortnight for pleasure
but does not regard themselves as privileged and they voted Tory despite sharing FB posts on a daily basis supporting nurses Hmm
ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 20:55

Mathanxiety
The US Census of 2020 may well yield similarly inaccurate results, for the same Hostile Environment reason and also because funding has been cut
Its so depressing.
The richest countries are moving backwards at high speed in terms of accurate data collection
its almost as if they have something to hide

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 20:56

May didn't use racist language or make racist jokes, but her policies did make life more stressful for immigrants

BJ very blatantly uses racist & homophobic language, playing to a section of the country that likes this
Some members of ethnic minorities have complained his language has encouraged attacks on them
However, he may well increase the numbers of immigrants - and his language will disguise this for some of his supporters

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 20:56

math I hope your family member returns home safely after his tour of duty

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 21:02

Malylis many people are carried away by headlines and have not studied history much if at all.

It's been mentioned a lot on these threads (or maybe some others) but the book 'Travelers in the Third Reich' is most interesting on the topic of anti Semitic tropes (and also how widespread anti-Semitism was in Germany and everywhere else in Europe).

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 21:03

BCF it's a friend of DS's. His parents haven't slept at all since they learned that his Christmas leave was canceled.

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 21:08

May didn't use racist language or make racist jokes

'Citizens of nowhere' is 100% anti-Semitic, straight out of the Goebbels playbook. It's a way to express the concept of Blut und Boden without coming out with those words.

Her use of the phrase she chose was actually gobsmacking.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 21:08

I've read many complaints that use of the USA H1-B visa for skilled workers is depressing the salaries and benefit packages of US workers in some fields,
but I don't know how true this is, or if there are other factors depressing the wages

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 21:09

math May was far more subtle; BJ is blatant in-your-face pub racist

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 21:11

math Does he know to which country he'll be sent, or if it is just a contingency ?

ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 21:13

Bigchoc
use of the USA H1-B visa for skilled workers is depressing the salaries and benefit packages of US workers in some fields
From sky high down to just extraordinarily good Wink

I have a couple of UK friends currently in the US on high skill visas
and if the US schools have not yet sussed out what the US companies want
more fool them

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2020 21:19

my next question would have to be what made Cameron preferable to Brown or Milliband?

Brown - the global crash that 'no one could have possibly predicted' (apart from all the people who did mysteriously manage it)
Milliband - the 'there's no money left memo'

A legacy of poor forward planning by the Labour government and a lack of contingency planning. The lack of trust in Labour with the economy.

Something that the middle classes with money in the bank felt was an unforgivable sin (note the same mentality of living within your means that drove the popularity of austerity).

Basically middle class personal fiscal thinking that doesn't translate to how governments run and work.

Also see lack of understanding of sovereignty and trade deals which we are about to find all about.

As I said at the start of the thread the emphasis has now flipped from economic conservatism to social conservatism so the political economic argument has just evaporated.

Brown and Milliband therefore belong to a time when thinking was very much different to what's driving the political narrative now.

The referendum was the thing that enabled that shift without shifting government.

Johnson represents this shifting priority.

Until people wake up and realise this is the new climate, trying to flog the economic argument isn't going to get traction because its old hat and from another political era.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 02/01/2020 21:27

I found May's narrow minded racism very unattractive but I did think she believed it

Yes, and although she put the Tory party first, I think she genuinely believed that this was the best for the country. Her xenophobia aside, she did have qualities like being loyal - which cannot be said of Johnson.

ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 21:29

Modern monetary theory
remains utter bollocks
BUT
20 years of Japanese debt shows that capital flight is a myth
AND
10 years of Eurozone recession has not caused capital flight
because
there is nowhere left to fly to

kicking the fiscal can down the road still seems stupid
but as the end of the road is a very long way away
and capital return is likely in the next 20 years

economic prudence
is a policy that has less relevance
compared with looking after current electors

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 21:31

I know of nobody who does not have some sort of loyalty to where they or their children or their parents were born.

The accusation against the Jews was (and remains, among anti-Semites) that they lacked this loyalty. Hence the Blut part of ... und Boden.

ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 21:35

math
and its always been bilge

DH is currently reading a ton of middle ages history.
the Jews keep being kicked out
but the fact that they are regularly kicked out implies that they quietly and regularly returned
to their homelands .....

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 21:38

BCF Iraq, and I know the name of the base, which is located well in the interior, but not sure if I can post it here (not trying to be dramatic, just aware that there are restrictions on how much he is supposed to tell family and friends).

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 21:56

^I have a couple of UK friends currently in the US on high skill visas
and if the US schools have not yet sussed out what the US companies want more fool them^

They know what is needed.

But Americans with the necessary education, skills and intellect tend to need higher salaries than immigrants in order to survive. They are often saddled with eye-watering student debt that must be paid off, and living costs (rent for the vast majority) in tech corridors tend to be very high.

Americans who are facing high debt repayments upon graduation tend to go into finance instead of science. American students (the brighter ones anyway) know exactly what they are looking at in terms of debt over their working lives.

Student debt is actually killing the US economy.