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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Galvantula · 21/12/2019 16:15

Pmk :( what a mess.

🎄

Stinkyeddie · 21/12/2019 16:16

Pmk
🎄

CrunchyCarrot · 21/12/2019 16:17

Merry Christmas and thanks Red.

Tanith · 21/12/2019 16:22

Lest it be missed on the last thread, CrunchyCarrot highlighted the sell off of the UK Defence company Cobham to Advent International, a US private equity company.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50874181

I'd hate this to be buried, like they were obviously hoping it would be by announcing it on the Friday before Christmas.

QueenOfThorns · 21/12/2019 16:24

Merry Christmas, thanks RTB

tobee · 21/12/2019 16:26

Thanks Red.

Shutting down debate is not a good idea.

I see after the floods there have now been tornadoes in Surrey. This apocalyptic weather seems fitting to the turbulent times.

Still we have Johnson as pm, he's all at healing the divide, right? Xmas Hmm

Happy Christmas everyone!

DustyDiamond · 21/12/2019 16:30

And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Indeed.

In particular, inflating rights to ‘protection from discrimination on the grounds of’ (with a definitive list of protected characteristics), from the UDHR (that ‘entitlement to rights’ is to be ‘without distinction’).

By changing the emphasis from all people^ being entitled to specified rights/freedoms, to specified groups^ being protected from, the situation was created whereby one group’s rights were set in opposition to another.

So, rather than ensuring equality, there is instead an environment where there is a hierarchy of ‘right’-ness.

The left appear to be (wilfully?) blind to this, and unless they get a grip they will continue to be rejected

CrunchyCarrot · 21/12/2019 16:31

Thanks Tanith.

Sir Ed Davey, acting leader of the Liberal Democrats, said the announcement was "deeply concerning" and said "we have yet to see evidence" that concerns over national security had been mitigated.

"If Boris Johnson's government are happy to sell off a leading UK defence and aerospace company to Trump's America, how can we expect his government to protect our defence and manufacturing sectors, not to mention every other sector of our economy, as they negotiate trade deals after Brexit?" he added.

When asked if he was comfortable with the takeover, the prime minister said: "I think it's very important that we should have an open and dynamic market economy."

Mr Johnson added: "A lot of checks have been gone through to make sure that in that particular case, all the security issues that might be raised can be satisfied and the UK will continue to be a very, very creative and dynamic contributor to that section of industry and all others."

DustyDiamond · 21/12/2019 16:32

(Formatting mega fail, sorry)

lonelyplanetmum · 21/12/2019 16:33

🎄 "God bless us, every one!"

derxa · 21/12/2019 16:34

,

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2019 16:40

Identity politics has indeed led to the centre and left fracturing into thousands of pieces
while the hard right has held together.

But the external enemy is getting bigger and stronger day by day
climate change

DGRossetti · 21/12/2019 16:48

.

tobee · 21/12/2019 16:58

the UK will continue to be a very, very creative and dynamic contributor to that section of industry and all others."

Surprised Johnson didn't say "a bigly creative and dynamic"

JustAnotherPoster00 · 21/12/2019 16:58

PMK

yolofish · 21/12/2019 17:05

Evenin all. PMK and am going to post a pic of my Christmas tree when I get round to it... not even bloody Johnson can take my tree away, no siree!

TheMustressMhor · 21/12/2019 17:11

Merry Christmas Everyone.

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
pointythings · 21/12/2019 17:12

Today is the first day of my precious Christmas holidays. I am going to spend it with my DDs, with my intermittent and temporary foster child, with said child's mum who is on the mend in terms of her MH and is a lovely person who needs a hand up. I am going to observe politics quietly and not give in to anger and despair.

Until the New Year, that is. Then I'll be angry and fighty and work on our escape from Brexit Britain.

Stinkyeddie · 21/12/2019 17:18

Me too pointy

Had a massage earlier, then out for coffee and cake and off to carols by candlelight later...

BigChocFrenzy · 21/12/2019 17:22

Thanks, red 💐

Westministenders' Abbreviations:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation?msgid=84503730

BestIsWest · 21/12/2019 17:29

Pmk

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2019 17:34

I am getting a new cat on Monday.
Will post pictures.

Still waiting for LeClerc to send me a picture of his to share with you Xmas Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 21/12/2019 17:39

Left vs right used to be about economics
crudely speaking, capitalism vs labour

Across the West since about the mid-1970s, the financial gains from globalisation and automation have gone overwhelmingly to about the top 5% or so of the population
and has disadvantaged great swathes of the traditional wc and increasingly the lower mc as well.

There is an increasing gulf between the wealthy who are doing very nicely and the rest of the population they mostly ignore.

This change - the end of the American Dream & the equivalent in other Western countries - has understandably caused great bitterness and discontent,
which the hard right have been better able to harness by offering a more authoritarian alternative, which is attractive to many in times of uncertainty,
especially when the left & centre are not engaging effectively with issues for the bottom 90%

The British Labour party has always supported rights for women and ethnic minorities, but that is not true of all those on the left
and certainly not true for communist regimes, which often whipped up racism and xenophobia to keep their populace uder control

The Tory party has mostly accepted gay rights
and in fact uses this change to disguise the fact they they have moved to the right economically over the last several decades

In BJ, they also have a PM who openly uses racial slurs and whips up anti-immigration feeling, as Trump does in the USA. to harness angry, frustrated voters

prettybird · 21/12/2019 17:42

What do you mean, you want to get out? Wink

Finding I have loads more time now that I know longer obsessively watch the news Blush Great for the run-up to Christmas! Xmas Wink

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
lonelyplanetmum · 21/12/2019 17:52

Now drum roll... I agree with Boris Johnson on something.

Apparently he has said Officals must drop the Term 'Brexit' After January 31.

I have said from the beginning giving this new undefined thing a name with an X in the middle gave it the exciting X factor. Something to vote for like supporting your fav on Strictly...

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-boris-johnson-downing-street-officials-negotiationsukk_5dfb57f3e4b01834791c02a8?guccounter=1