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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
ChrismArseDarkly · 22/12/2019 08:25

As long as people keep dripping on about Labour/Corbyn/Swinson, Cummings and his big fat dummy will run riot

frumpety · 22/12/2019 08:39

Lonelyplanetmum Matthew Elliot was part of the Leave team with Cummings, not sure what he is up to now ?

chomalungma · 22/12/2019 08:42

Dead Ringers on BBC last Friday was spot on about the Northerness of a new Labour leader.

It also had a 'remake of Billy Elliot with the Dad concerned that his son was a Labour voter Grin

frumpety · 22/12/2019 08:46

chomalungma heard that episode too, it was very funny Grin

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2019 08:48

Gabriel Pogrund
🚨 EXCLUSIVE: The Sunday Times has obtained Labour's secret list of target seats for the election

It reveals Murphy and Milne fought "deranged" offensive campaign focused on Tory Leave seats

Hidden from staff, this version was updated 15th Nov and leaked by a trade union (1/5)

It reveals that despite polls Labour targeted 60 seats and defended just 26

The list includes Tory seats with majorities of more than 5,000 like Stourbridge, Dover and Gloucester

Echoes Murphy's claim that Labour would reject polling. "We ripped up those rules,' she said. (2/5)

Some seats appear to be political - for example Labour continued to target @lucianaberger in Finchley and Golders Green but it did not prioritise @RuthSmeeth in Stoke on Trent North

Ditto with several Corbynsceptics as resources were marshalled elsewhere 3/5

Source says campaign was based on three motives:

- disprove defensive approach of 2017
- show that Lab support concentrated in non-Remain areas
- internal politics, change complexion of PLP

"Unite are behind this," they say (4/5)

They say that Labour was warned but kept this document as their central strategy and refused to develop a new plan

"Murphy and Milne are responsible for the most catastrophic defeat in almost a century. They must go."

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
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RedToothBrush · 22/12/2019 08:57

Paul Hilder @paulhilder
We at @DatapraxisEU offered @UKLabour HQ the best polling and modelling data to inform their targeting strategy in #GE2019. They weren’t interested. It might not have stopped the landslide, but it could have saved some seats.

Ian Warren @election_data
I'm about as sceptical of datas ability to save seats as I am of Labour's targeting smarts. Speaking as someone who was involved in providing some of the modelling Paul is talking about.

I think you ignore information at your peril. It's a tool but not a magic wand.

It gives you an idea of what you are dealing with and then you combine that with what humans say.

You can win votes from an unexpected demographic by engaging but you still have to know where its a useful strategy to employ in terms of resources and where you will just be pissing in the wind.

At the end of the day, polling and demographic data are forms of quantifing opinions. It isn't complete bollocks. It has its limitations and its flaws but it also has its merits.

Ignoring it, is ignoring the electorate.

I don't like it but that's not the point. It's a reality.

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thecatfromjapan · 22/12/2019 09:02

Sadly, without a functioning Opposition - and the fear that there is enough support for that Opposition to get the current government voted out in 5 years time - there is nothing to hold Cummings, Johnson & co in check.

Nothing.

Talk of whether there is or isn't a mandate is just chatter.

You are essentially hoping for good Will from a group whose understanding of 'good' and 'success' are at radical variance from your own.

And - here's the saddest bit - that 'Sunday Times' story Red has linked to demonstrates just how far we are from a functioning Opposition.

Firstimemam · 22/12/2019 09:05

What a mess. Merry Christmas & thanks red, as always x

CrissmussMockers · 22/12/2019 09:05

Formby, McClusky, Milne and Murphy, the four donkeys of the apocalypse, all behind Wrong Daily. Next Stop Oblivion.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/12/2019 09:09

A large majority delivers power

As long as a govt has power, they dont need a mandate, don't need to have set out their policies before the GE

However, the poll tax riots that brought down MrsT showed that even after a landslide victory, a PM can be toppled if she does something that sufficient people refuse to accept

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2019 09:10

OK Red so you know one LD whose opinions you don't agree with.

DGR sounds off sometimes about Christians. In neither case does that mean everyone in the group thinks the same.

Apples and pears.

DGR isn't running a party who say that says only agnostics and atheists have a place whilst simultaneously claiming that they are liberal and democratic.

The individual I know is reflective of what LD campaign strategy was, what senior LD figures were doing and what very vocal LD groups were doing.

My friend is part of a wider institutional problem with the LDs. I know that many in the grassroots do not share those opinions but they don't hold power and influence in the party and aren't challenging this bullshit liberal identity stuff and promoting what liberal democracy actually is. In fact I am aware of people who have and have effectively been bullied out at all levels of the party.

My anecdote is more about how its coming across on an individual basis to people who do share views but are ultimately put off by the political zealotry and evangelism.

The LDs by nature should be a party of moderates and pragmatists. That's what the centre ground and liberal democracy is all about.

Not understanding that and just dismissing it as not a real problem is precisely the issue.

It's more 'la la la I'm not listening'.

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Oakenbeach · 22/12/2019 09:11

@ChrismArseDarkly

If Labour or LDs (don’t know where you are politically but guess you’re not Tory based on your comments) got a 80 seat majority I don’t you’d be concerned that its policies had no mandate.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2019 09:12

I've even had a very senior LD tell me off record he agrees there is a massive culture and problem with bullying in the party.

Fuck all has been done to resolve it of course.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/12/2019 09:13

There is nothing "progressive" about making people poorer,
whether to carry out a hard left agenda or anything else

prettybird · 22/12/2019 09:13

5,000 new SNP members since the GE Smile

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18117328.5000-apply-join-snp-since-general-election/

Cherrypi · 22/12/2019 09:16

I think the SNP are the opposition party now. Johnson seemed to spend more time talking at them at the despatch box.

ChrismArseDarkly · 22/12/2019 09:18

No of course I wouldn't oakenbeach, I would just blindly go with anything they decided just like I didn't with Blair and the Iraq war/ID cards/PFI etc

How clever of you to point that out

Oakenbeach · 22/12/2019 09:23

Oh Dear, but what did you expect: Labour sucession race is descending into a Four Yorkshiremen contest.

It would be a big mistake for Labour to make background an overriding factor in the decision for its next leader...

After all BJ couldn’t have been more different to a typical working class northerner, and it didn’t stop him - quite the contrary! Tony Blair did ok too! It’s policies and ability to connect that count ultimately, not the strength of your accent.

Also, I believe people will see generally through the superficiality of this tokenism, and beside it doesn’t do anything for Midlands, London or other regional voters!

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2019 09:26

Vote by age over time.

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
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prettybird · 22/12/2019 09:30

New Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland.....from Rochdale Hmm

No Scottish connections whatsoever that I can see from his Wikipedia entry Hmm

https://labourlist.org/2019/12/labour-appoints-tony-lloyd-as-shadow-scotland-secretary/

Ian Murray, the sole remaining Labour MP for Scotland (who is actually rather good Smile) resigned from Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet in 2016.

TokyoSushi · 22/12/2019 09:36

PMK

lonelyplanetmum · 22/12/2019 10:00

Johnson seemed to spend more time talking at them (SNP) at the despatch box.

Pondering RTBs post on social and fiscal conservatism- very interesting.

On the Scotland note -Boris Johnson playing with his phone while the SNP are speaking wont help the situation there.

Given the ' we are the natural ruling class' mentality of people like Rees Mogg. Surely It will make them feel so emasculated if Scotland leave.They'd be much smaller rulers if they are reduced to lording it over a separate little England and Wales surely?

So say Scotland are prevented from holding a ref. If I were Nicola I'd hold a non binding indicative ref. What will the rulers do to stop that. We all know indicative non binding referendums must be acted upon. What can stop this happening - offers of more devolved power; bribing with increased budgets?

I'm not sure if May wanted to justify a Brino to the ERG. But if she did-surely she could have said the choice is lose Scotland and get your dream FTAs . Or keep Scotland and Brino.

What tricks will Cummings have to keep Scotland.

How would the new Tory voters take loss of Scotland - if they are socially conservative then they don't like any cultural change -& loss of Scotland is a big cultural change.

Thanks frumpety for the Matthew Elliot reminder. Google says as of 2018 was the editor of a BrexitCentral website. He was at Legatum too before lots of them shifted to the IEA. Bizarre isn't it that Momentum is a common feature of analysing political strategy yet we don't know which members of the IEA are helping dictate the future now.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 10:01

As long as people keep dripping on about Labour/Corbyn/Swinson, Cummings and his big fat dummy will run riot

I fully agree.

DuckWillow · 22/12/2019 10:28

The thing you have to remember with elections is that pretty much 30% of those who vote will vote Conservative. Around a similar amount will vote Labour. The other 40% will either vote Lib Dem/smaller parties and a large percentage of then will be like me....the floating voter who will vote for whoever I think will do the best job.

Now this election I was never more politically homeless. I didn’t like Jeremy Corbyn as I don’t think he’s a leader. However nor do I believe he’s the anti-Semitic terrorist sympathiser he was painted.
I don’t like Boris Johnson as he’s proved again and again that he is economical with the truth. Plus I am fuming about how much vulnerable people have been shafted in the past nine years.

I was always going to be hacked off with the result of this election.

I live in a safe Tory area and the most that could be hoped was a reduced majority for the sitting MP by voting Labour ..which is what I did. Our Tory MP was returned but with a reduced majority. He’s actually a good MP and I am not sorry that he was re-elected.

I don’t think people have been listened to for a long time but it’s key they feel that Boris Johnson and the Conservatives were more likely to do a good job than Labour.

However to keep the traditional Labour sears I think Boris will have to deliver some social and economic change to these areas. This is going to mean investing in projects that perhaps would not have been under the old Conservative governments.

I will wait and see.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2019 10:45

www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/12/signs-brexit-britain-191220205142247.html

aljazeera.com
Seven signs of things to come in Brexit Britain
by James Brownsell • Editor's Analysis20 Dec 2019 21:23 GMT
9-12 minutes

London, United Kingdom - Last week, Britain's Conservatives resoundingly won the country's general election in a landslide which pushed the opposition Labour party to their worst result since before the Second World War.

Once all the Champagne corks in Downing Street had been popped and the final bottle of the night had been drained, Prime Minister Boris Johnson set to work, safe in the knowledge that his thumping 80-seat majority would give him carte blanche in governing a country hamstrung by bitter division for the three-and-a-half years since the fateful European Union referendum.

It was nearly a week before the Queen set out the government's legislative agenda in her speech at the official state opening of Parliament - albeit trimmed down of much of its pomp and spectacle just nine weeks after the last one - but top Tories wasted no time in throwing off the shackles of the previous paralysed legislature, in which Johnson was thwarted at every turn, with no majority and no ability to govern, now flexing their muscle and showing the country their plans for using their new-found power.

MPs approve first stage of PM Johnson's Brexit legislation [1:59]

"The Conservatives sold a simple, straight-forward image of getting things done that delivered them the election," Mark Shanahan, head of the politics department at the University of Reading, told Al Jazeera.

"But their voters should be careful what they wish for"

Here are seven highlights of the first week of the Conservatives' return to power.

  1. Damien Green advocates a US-style, insurance-based social care system

Less than 24 hours after polls had closed, Damien Green, a former secretary of state for work and pensions, and a Conservative MP since 1997, appeared on the LBC radio station and spoke about social care.

"We all accept there has to be more money to go into the system," he said.

"You can pay it just out of general taxation and say it's all free, but that means that people who are currently taxpayers - 30-, 40-, 50-somethings now - will have to pay towards their own care at the end of life, but also they'll instantly start paying for the older generation's care as well... Which I think, to put it mildly, has fairness implications to it.

"Or, you can try some kind of insurance system, so that those who can afford to take out a policy should be encouraged to do so, which will buy them peace of mind, and if you have a big enough insurance system, you don't need people selling their homes. You need them to use a bit of property wealth to do it, but it'll be a controlled amount, they'll know what they're spending, they'll know what they've got left... that's the system I advocate."

Social care in the UK has been stretched by the demands of an aging population and austerity-driven cuts to services - but it is currently funded through general taxation and is 100 percent free at the point of use for all those who require it.

"The Conservatives' great medicine show in the UK election was the cure-all 'Get Brexit Done'," Scott Lucas, professor of international politics at the University of Birmingham, told Al Jazeera.

"But the ideas they have floated in the past 72 hours indicate they may have a lot more snake oil in their cabinet."

  1. Confirmation extra nurses and hospitals will not materialise for at least ten years

The Conservatives were ridiculed during the election campaign when it emerged that 18,500 of 50,000 new nurses promised to the country's beloved National Health Service were not going to be new recruits, but existing staff the government aimed to retain.

Speaking on ITV, Culture Minister Nicky Morgan - voted out by her constituents in the election, only to be appointed by Johnson to the House of Lords and keep her job - said the nurses would be in place "if you look in ten years' time".

Johnson also repeatedly pledged to build 40 new hospitals, though plans in reality provide the cash to pay for six to be refurbished within the five years of this Parliament.

  1. Plans to outlaw boycotts of Israeli goods and institutions

The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement seeks to pressure the Israeli government to end its 52-year military occupation of Palestinian territories and its daily infringements of Palestinian human rights. But Eric Pickles, former Conservative Party chairman, summed up the feelings of many Tories by calling it "a thin disguise for anti-Semitism".

Johnson went on to speak out against it in Parliament on Thursday:

Boris looks set to outlaw local councils and public bodies from taking part in #BDS boycott of Israeli state institutions. pic.twitter.com/esNYI1Nogr
— James Brownsell (<strong>@JamesBrownsell</strong>) December 20, 2019

Read more: 'Deeply damaging': Anger as Boris Johnson plans 'anti-BDS' law

  1. Ditching workers' rights and environmental protections

The Conservatives have long been known as the party of business, so it may come as little surprise that pledges to maintain profit-sapping workers' rights and environmental protections are being scrapped.

In the proposed draft law intended to bring the UK out of the European Union - known as the Brexit Bill - brought forward by the prime minister in October, there was a commitment to provide additional "procedural protections" for workers' rights currently guaranteed by EU law which could have been challenged by unscrupulous employers in post-Brexit Britain. They were contained in clause 34 and Schedule four of the bill.

But in the amended bill brought to Parliament on Friday, those protections have been scrubbed out.

It was the second blow in a double-whammy - on Wednesday, the prime minister's spokesman announced plans to empower lower-order courts to overturn EU laws and rulings of the European Court of Justice after Britain leaves the world's largets trading bloc. Analysts point out that this could put at risk not just workers' rights and environmental protections, but also consumer rights, such as receiving compensation for delayed flights, currently enshrined EU law.

The spokesperson said this was an example of "taking back control of our laws", as had been promised.

  1. Axing pledge to allow MPs a vote on extending Brexit transition

Also stripped out of the new Brexit Bill is a guarantee that MPs would be allowed to extend the Brexit "transition period" if a trade deal is not reached between the UK and EU by the end of 2020 - an announcement which sent the pound tumbling.

It again raises the spectre of what most economists, healthcare administrators and other experts describe as an economically calamitous "no-deal" Brexit.

  1. Abandoning plans to raise the national living wage

A flagship policy when launched at Conservative Party conference in September was to raise the "living wage" to £10.50 ($13.66) an hour. It would have benefitted around four million people, and meant a boost of £4,000 ($5,200) a year to some of Britain's lowest-earners.

It's not clear how many voters were swayed by the policy, but the the Queen's Speech on Thursday indicated it would only be implemented "provided economic conditions allow".

"Working people will want to check the small print before trusting this government's promises," said Frances O'Grady, general secretary of the Trades Union Congress.

  1. Finding support among the far-right

Britain First, a far-right extremist group whose leaders were jailed for religiously aggravated harrassment last year, has urged its members in an email newsletter to join the Conservative Party to "make Boris Johnson's leadership more secure". The email claimed thousands of its supporters had signed up to join Johnson's party.

Tommy Robinson, the founder of the English Defence League, declared "everyone should vote for Boris Johnson". And writer Katie Hopkins lashed out at former Conservative chair Baroness Sayeeda Warsi's call for the Tories to start healing its relationship with British Muslims.

Katie Hopkins tweet - twitter

A Conservative spokesperson told The Independent newspaper the party was "vigilant against those seeking to join the party who do not share our aims", but activists have called for Johnson to issue a strong denunciation of extremist rhetoric.

"The prime minister says he does not condone the views of Tommy Robinson, but he has not condemned them either," Harun Khan, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, told the paper.

Jonathan Lis is deputy director of the British Influence think-tank.

"During the election campaign, the Conservatives promised to be a hard-right nationalist government which disregarded concerns about rights, the economy and democratic norms," he told Al Jazeera.

"One week after their victory, they are simply confirming it."
More to come?

The Conservatives have also proposed a commission to study the nation's "constitution, democracy and rights", sparking fears of potential gerrymandering, reducing the independence of the judiciary and the repeal of the Human Rights Act.

There were also proposals in the Queen's Speech to bring in a voter ID law, despite warnings it could disenfranchise voters, particularly those who are low-income, vulnerable or from minority communities.

"All of the government's public commentary, and a carefully worded Queen's Speech, shout 'Look at what we say, not what we do'," said Dr Shanahan of the University of Reading.

"The promises of a new, hopeful UK are actually bounded in by a more executive-dominated style of politics that favour the Conservatives' friends - and promises, longer-term, a more libertarian UK. We won't see big changes until the spring, but the devil will be in the detail with this government - and those details may not favour those from outside London who helped create the new 'Great Blue Wall'."

A request to Conservative Party headquarters for comment on this article resulted in the phone being hung up without any comment given. The party has also failed to reply to emailed requests for comment.