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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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Arborea · 22/12/2019 11:15

Prettybird Tony Lloyd isn't from Rochdale: he lives in Withington in south Manchester which has quite a different demographic mix. I don't think he has any connections to Northern Ireland either, but he's actually done a half decent job as shadow SoS for NI - I haven't been able to find out who's replacing him in that role, but think it's a bit of a shame to lose him.

Various Govt SoSes have failed miserably at grasping the complexities and nuances (e.g. Karen Bradley, James Brokenshire etc) so it was a pleasant surprise to hear that Tony Lloyd did seem to understand what the reality of a hard border would mean (even if he wasn't as unambiguous as he should have been at speaking up for the Customs Union and Single Market)

2 excellent pieces I wanted to share. First of all, predictions for the Johnson Government's constitutional priorities by one of those pesky experts: www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/constitutional-vandalism-is-inherent-to-the-johnson-cummings-project-law-courts-parliament-conservative-manifesto

Secondly, this piece sheds light on another, not yet widely accepted, crucial task for the replacement leaders to the Opposition parties: understanding and then tackling how Johnson's campaign challenged the character of politics: www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/boris-johnson-made-politics-awful-then-asked-people-vote-it-away/

ContinuityError · 22/12/2019 11:44

Arborea I think Tony Lloyd is staying on as SoS for NI (so in effect covering both jobs)?

lonelyplanetmum · 22/12/2019 11:46

Thanks Arborea and DGR three really interesting pieces.

I'd been worrying about the constitutional 'reform' but thought they may not bother as no urgency now with the majority.

I hadn't thought that it could also serve as a useful distraction when the exit takes longer to deliver than promised.

I hadn't realised that the reach of the Tory attack messages across the country( from the day the election was called to the day of the vote)were viewed 16m times.Compared to anti-Brexit and pro-Labour of 4.7m views.

Also thought this was very well expressed:

" people complained that reporters did little to tell them what politicians were actually proposing to do for the country. Instead, they focussed on personalities, sniping and bickering. And this trend, to cover politics as though it is reality TV, rather than a negotiation about how we live together, is surely the most significant way that the media drives alienation and disengagement. It rides alongside disinformation and dark money as the horses of our democratic apocalypse."

DuckWillow · 22/12/2019 11:55

Thank you Arborea because that second article sums up why I no longer trust anything I read.

TatianaLarina · 22/12/2019 11:59
Gin
borntobequiet · 22/12/2019 11:59

Agree it might be smart for Nicola to go for a non-binding indicative ref. It might work in her favour, as people might be more willing to vote for what would be difficult, extracting Scotland from the Union, if were not a binding ref condoned by Westminster.

mybrainhurtsalot · 22/12/2019 12:02

Fucking hell, the geo-fencing stuff in that OpenDemocracy article Arborea posted. I wonder if they did that on the PV marches.

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 12:15

From the 2nd article linked by Arborea:

"The Conservative strategy was, therefore, simple: wage war on the political process, on trust, and on truth. Ensure the whole experience is miserable, bewildering and stressful, then ask voters to make it go away"

This spectacularly misrepresents what I was witnessing across social media & friendship groups

The war on political process was actually already underway & had been for a long while

What BJ & Cummings did was shine huge amounts of light on the broken & removed nature of politics & politicians from the electorate

This was particularly stark in the run up to the GE finally being 'permitted' by the hostage-takers in Parliament and the GE campaign was merely a follow-on from what we could all see quite clearly:

  • many MPs cared not for what their constituents wanted
  • many MPs cared only about playing games & party-politicking
  • many MPs were completely comfortable with dismissing the EU Ref result

From the article quoted by DGR earlier:

"Culture Minister Nicky Morgan - voted out by her constituents in the election, only to be appointed by Johnson to the House of Lords and keep her job"

Blatantly false reporting 🤷🏻‍♀️
She wasn't voted out by her constituents at all. Yes, she was appointed to the HoL & kept her job in cabinet (for the time being), but she did not 'lose her job' as an MP - she resigned prior to the election

DGRossetti · 22/12/2019 12:19

She wasn't voted out by her constituents at all.

Well, she wasn't voted in either ...

lonelyplanetmum · 22/12/2019 12:19

Environment Minister Zac Goldsmith - was absolutely voted out by his constituents in the election, only to be appointed by Johnson to the House of Lords and keep [his] job

CrissmussMockers · 22/12/2019 12:21

Maybe Al Jazz are getting Auntie NiMo mixed up with the Islamophobic racist Zak Goldsmith, voted out but keeps his job for two more moths.

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 12:21

Well, she wasn't voted in either ...

Well, obviously not 🙄
Y'know, being as how she didn't stand as an MP and all

Which is the precise opposite of what that article claims 🤷🏻‍♀️

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 12:22

Well yes, LonelyPlanet - that would have been entirely valid to include in the article

So why print a blatant falsehood when there was a perfectly good & prescient fact at hand?!

PeninsulaPanic · 22/12/2019 12:24

@DustyDiamond and you say we hear what we want to hear Hmm

derxa · 22/12/2019 12:35

Formby, McClusky, Milne and Murphy, the four donkeys of the apocalypse, all behind Wrong Daily. Next Stop Oblivion. These people should spend some time reading Guido Fawkes and The Daily Mail as in 'know your enemy'. They should be electing a leader with gravitas not a Corbyn disciple. They should be watching Neil Kinnock's brilliant conference attacking cretins like Degsy.

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 12:36

DustyDiamond and you say we hear what we want to hear Hmm

Why the face?!

lonelyplanetmum · 22/12/2019 12:50

A couple of articles here on working hours protections and GM foods.

It's weird but at least I find what is starting to emerge now more honest and logically consistent.

Even though I wanted to retain our EU membership - that door has now been banged shut by the 13 million Tory ERG supporters.

I couldn't bear the disingenuousness before, all the pretence of ' we love the NHS, we won't prejudice workers' rights, we will protect agriculture etc etc.' Bollocks.

At least it is now coming out in the open a bit more now.

The main reason for objections to the EU's ' control' was an objection in principle to a basic externally agreed platform of decent working conditions. The anti EU brigade always wanted to leave this choice to business owners. Ever since the original days of the referendum party entrepreneurs like Sir James Goldsmith and many after him wanted autonomy over workers.

It's an alternative view that I don't agree with. I think overworked and exhausted staff don't lead to successful businesses. BUT I can accept that others hold a contrary view. A friend who I respect who ran a successful marketing business always hated the restrictions of our employment rights and argued with me about them. So a view like his is now coming out in the open - so let's hope we now hear more of the PM coming out and selling this vision. Why not say stuff like 'sorry Guys but to get more of our US business investment we have to curtail these rights ok? '

Francis O'Grady on working time

https://sciencebusiness.net/news/boris-johnson-vows-ditch-eu-rules-gm-crops

DuckWillow · 22/12/2019 12:55

To be honest that’s one tiny piece of the article ...the rest is pretty accurate though. It’s part of the reason I hated the Conservative campaign...full of misinformation and lies. I didn’t want Corbyn but I couldn’t possibly vote Tory either. It’s why I remain conflicted and will watch the Johnson Govt carefully. I don’t think we can tell anything just yet. I will watch and decide over the next two years but am expecting the services which have been cut over the past nine years to remain cut.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 12:59

So a view like his is now coming out in the open - so let's hope we now hear more of the PM coming out and selling this vision. Why not say stuff like 'sorry Guys but to get more of our US business investment we have to curtail these rights ok? '

How well will this play with his new Red Wall Tories? How also when the E Europeans go home saying 'stuff this mate'?

To cut workers rights to the bone, you have to have enough people who are desperate enough to take the jobs - which isn't the case in a country with an ageing population and has told the countries nearest who supplied the immigrants under FoM that they are not wanted.

tobee · 22/12/2019 13:04

Yes but they won't though derxa. Is there an emoji for throwing hands up in the air to denote huge frustration? The shrug one really doesn't cut it!

pinboard · 22/12/2019 13:12

PMK

Merry Christmas! to red and all regular and not so regular posters (like me after a name change and desperately trying to keep up)

PeninsulaPanic · 22/12/2019 13:41

The face was at the hypocrisy in your post at 12:15. You make your idols "shining a light on the broken & removed nature of politics & politicians from the electorate" sound positively philanthropic! If only they had done so out of more than blatant self-interest, but no, first chance they get they're ripping out planks of pretty much everyone-below-them's basic protections.

I could go on but I'm not going to play up to your goady narrative.

Hmm with bells on

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2019 13:50

The New Labour leader will have to win back the votes of the people who voted this lot in.
Woke, identity politics, females are unlikely to succeed.
Labour is two parties now - neither of which is in a place to be a functioning opposition

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 14:01

The face was at the hypocrisy in your post at 12:15.

Confused

You make your idols "shining a light on the broken & removed nature of politics & politicians from the electorate" sound positively philanthropic!

Not my 'idol' at all 🙄
I was merely stating my observations in the lead up to the GE 🤷🏻‍♀️

If only they had done so out of more than blatant self-interest, but no, first chance they get they're ripping out planks of pretty much everyone-below-them's basic protections.

What 'planks of basic protections' have been 'ripped out'?

None

I'm presuming you mean removing the workers rights stuff from the WA?
Well that's just sensible 🤷🏻‍♀️

Why on earth would you include that in the WA?!
Surely better to have it in a separate & specific statute?

I could go on but I'm not going to play up to your goady narrative.
**
with bells on

I'm not goading, not at all

I just happen to view things from a different perspective to you is all

I was not remotely rude nor obnoxious in my earlier post.
Sadly the same cannot be said if you towards me - so probs for the best really that you take a step back & stop @ing me (as you did before) 🤷🏻‍♀️

DGRossetti · 22/12/2019 14:23

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50883161

Tesco has suspended production of charity Christmas cards at a factory in China after a six-year-old girl found a message from workers inside one.

The note, found by Florence Widdicombe, was allegedly written by prisoners in Shanghai claiming they were "forced to work against our will".

"Please help us and notify human rights organisation," the message said.

Tesco said it was "shocked" by the report, adding: "We would never allow prison labour in our supply chain."

The supermarket said it would de-list the supplier of the cards, Zheijiang Yunguang Printing, if it was found to have used prison labour.

Florence was writing cards to her school friends when she found that one of them - featuring a kitten with a Santa hat - had already been written in.