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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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OublietteBravo · 21/12/2019 22:16

PMK.

GeistohneGrenzen · 21/12/2019 22:19

pmk 🎄

Peregrina · 21/12/2019 22:20

OK Red so you know one LD whose opinions you don't agree with.

DGR sounds off sometimes about Christians. In neither case does that mean everyone in the group thinks the same.

The whole political system is a mess, I think we can agree there. I think we can also agree that Johnson hasn't actually got a mandate for many of the policies that he wants to enact.

NatashaGurdin · 21/12/2019 22:42

This says that:

www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/about-the-nhs/what-is-an-nhs-number/

"Your NHS Number is assigned to you soon after you're born or the first time you get NHS care or treatment.

This number is valid for life unless you're assigned a new number due to a reason like adoption or gender reassignment."

How does that work? Does it record your sex? I'll have to look at my latest prescription and see exactly what my number is!

Anyway, it seems that it might be simple to link this number to an officially accepted photo like you can link your driving licence photo and your passport photo which I did when I changed from a still valid paper licence to a photo licence and renewed my passport for the reason of obtaining photo ID as I had not worked for a while due to ill health and had effectively disappeared off official records requiring ID when I wanted to start looking for work again!

Jason118 · 21/12/2019 22:54

I think we can also agree that Johnson hasn't actually got a mandate for many of the policies that he wants to enact.

It makes no difference. The cult of Johnson allows for anything that Cummings thinks up. If he can win based on the last 10 year shit show, anything goes.

Oakenbeach · 21/12/2019 23:15

I think we can also agree that Johnson hasn't actually got a mandate for many of the policies that he wants to enact.

If that’s the case, no UK Government has ever had a mandate (at least not for many generations) to do anything! And yet the LDs were claiming they’d have a mandate to revoke the referendum result with a GE victory which could well have been achieved with just 35% of the vote as opposed to the 52% of the referendum.

DustyDiamond · 21/12/2019 23:24

I think we can also agree that Johnson hasn't actually got a mandate for many of the policies that he wants to enact.

🤔

Call me old fashioned, but I think an 80 seat majority could be seen as a mandate 🤷🏻‍♀️

Peregrina · 21/12/2019 23:31

Yes, an 80 seat majority is one sort of mandate, so he's got a mandate for Brexit. He does know he hasn't got a mandate to privatise the NHS - so he won't do it publicly but will carry on doing it by stealth. He hasn't got the whole population behind him on quite a number of issues.

Regimes do topple when sufficient people are no longer in thrall to them. I personally thought that the boundaries of E and W Germany were fixed and wham, the Berlin Wall fell the next year. Now I don't doubt that those with their noses to the ground could tell that this was going to come, but it took many by surprise.

ChrismArseDarkly · 21/12/2019 23:37

I think we can also agree that Johnson hasn't actually got a mandate for many of the policies that he wants to enact.

People were prepared to vote for him, despite it being blindingly obvious the whole campaign was built on lies, so presumably those same people are prepared to suck up any other policy he and Cummings decide to inflict because they Done Brexit. That's their mandate.

And those that didn't vote for them are a bunch of losers who can fuck off.

HateIsNotGood · 21/12/2019 23:52

I did the electoral calculus thing too - answering every question as truthfully and near to my beliefs as possible - 86% Progressive.

Was I Shock - No. Why would I be? Leaving the EU could well turn out to be a very progressive thing to do.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 22/12/2019 00:07

pmk (and it was probably one tornado, rather than tornadoes)

Torchlightt · 22/12/2019 00:12

.

TiddleTaddleTat · 22/12/2019 00:33

Pmk

ContinuityError · 22/12/2019 00:37

our NHS number, which is presumably unique and issued to us when we are born

DS’s Scottish NHS number doesn’t work in England (computer says no).

I’m pretty sure his NI number was generated when he was assigned his child trust fund though.

BirdandSparrow · 22/12/2019 00:47

pmk

ContinuityError · 22/12/2019 01:01

NI Numbers - back in the day when you were sent an NI Card with your number on when you left school I was aware that the first two letters indicated your age (or maybe the year of issue)

Pretty sure this isn’t true - initially the first two letters were geographic indicators but this changed and is now secret squirrel territory. Having seen the numbers of various employees that were born in the same year (in the 1990s) the first two letters varied widely.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 01:23

And those that didn't vote for them are a bunch of losers who can fuck off.

For myself, I am happy to be a loser if being a winner means that you follow a man who lies and cheats his way through life.

ContinuityError · 22/12/2019 01:24

Or possibly only true for a limited period of time - initially the letters corresponded to friendly societies (so geographic) and then may have designated a span of years (eg AB covering several years) - I’m not sure that it related to one specific year.

BoreOfWhabylon · 22/12/2019 01:34

pmk

thecatfromjapan · 22/12/2019 07:07
Thanks
AmurderIsAnnounced · 22/12/2019 07:16

Pmk.

lonelyplanetmum · 22/12/2019 07:44

I think we can also agree that Johnson hasn't actually got a mandate for many of the policies that he wants to enact

Every morning when I wake up I still am incredulous. That after:
🎼 One referendum
Two snap elections
Three appalling years

The only mandate there is - is for some still unknown form of Brexit. It's still a very indeterminate partridge in a pear tree.

When talking of mandates I hope posters & those including Cummings, all giddy with their new power remember that a huge election mandate from 13.9 million voters is still outweighed by the 16.75 million voters who opposed.

Also as I've pondered before do we know (apart from Cummings) which advisers are in Johnson's inner circle? It is their views that will dictate our path. Often other politicians turn against the PMs advisers as happened with May. So who are the key members of the dream team?

ChrismArseDarkly · 22/12/2019 08:09

For myself, I am happy to be a loser if being a winner means that you follow a man who lies and cheats his way through life.

OK but part from feeling ok about oneself there has to be something constructive about being on the side of The Angels.

If the people who lie and cheat get to run the country and line their pocketsm- perhaps even destroy the country - and people who are honest and law-abiding are powerless to stop them, what is the lesson learned?

ChrismArseDarkly · 22/12/2019 08:14

Call me old fashioned, but I think an 80 seat majority could be seen as a mandate

For people who 'think' like this, the majority is the mandate. Cummings knows it - by the time he's finished taking a Stanley knife to government and judiciary there'll be no further discussion.

CrissmussMockers · 22/12/2019 08:15

Oh Dear, but what did you expect: Labour sucession race is descending into a Four Yorkshiremen contest.

There were a hundred Longs and fifty Baileys all living in t'shoebox in Salford Docks. Young Starmer revising for his law exams by t'light of t'blast furnace.

Oh Dear