Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

It's not being well spun within the NHS though where folk know it's bollocks. Just like all teachers know that the money being promised to education takes us to 2010 funding levels and still leaves most schools worse off per pupil next year.

But the massive difference is, it’s possible.

Most people understood that promising everyone the earth simply wasn’t viable.

Boris is quite cleverly making a big deal about enshrining NHS funding in law, even though it’s nothing more than was happening anyway

Nick Cohen in The Guardian in how and why we need an Opposition and how we don't have one now.

And why that is bad.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/15/do-not-look-to-labour-to-defend-the-institutions-johnson-seeks-to-destroy?CMP=ShareAndroidApppCopytooclipboard&twitterr_impression=true

An opposition to be effective it needs a free non partisan media to report it and there we have the sticking point in this country

That is absolute bollocks.

The media give Corbyn a hard time because he’s a complete twat with shite policies who surrounds himself with idiots.

It makes him an easy target.

He sees no short or medium term hope for Labour, by the way.

Labour needs to pull back from the hard Left. Labour can't do that at the moment.

And the hard Left is electoral death for Labour.

As this election really, really did demonstrate.

I watched this during the election on twitter but didnt find it until now on youtube to show you but it was interesting to hear Browns angle on it

I take it then that Bearbehind / Cendrillon
admit that there is in fact NO new money for the NHS above already agreed inflation
so the new MPs are not even sworn in and Johnson is yet again a proven liar

Brexit is a baby
whose delivery requires skilled midwives and reliable parents
Johnson and the Tories are neither

thecat We've discussed before how much the hard right and hard left have in common, like the 2 ends of a horseshoe coming together
It's not just their techniques; it's the common authoritarian mindset

Corbyn & co - Milne is imo especially dangerous - will know that they could never be elected in normal circumstances - the GE result wasn't really a surprise to them; their plans are longterm

It's not a bad punt for them to bet that the combination of BJ, Raab, Patel & co, with Cummings pulling the strings, could end up with a v hard Brexit and send the country over the cliff
desperate for absolutely anyone else to ride to the rescue

The next months are all about completing their takeover of the Labour party machine
and deciding the party election rules to get their candidates nominated for the GE after Brexit and the next ....

The coming leadership election will be with a membership angry at Tory triumphalism and Brexit celebrations,
having their noses rubbed in it, hence very vulnerable.

Labour moderates need to decide well beforehand on ONE really good candidate and unite around them, no friendly fire
and with a plan to get Labour back, give members hope,

Otherwise, members might vote for Milne's planned choice

• Corbyn was an accident who was never intended to become leader, but he has given his wing of the party a way in that they didn't have before

Singasonga - my thoughts exactly. That moment has passed now though.

The next kick at goal is Brexit, and in the meantime the idea is to consider how to approach the voters who have lent their votes.

This is going to be interesting because a) their numbers are not as numerous as Johnson would like, and b) northerners tend to be plain speakers (I was one originally so I know!) and will only put up with so much piffle and waffle from Johnson, and c) the normal Tory offer of tax cuts for the wealthy i.e people on over say £15000 is just not going to cut it with people who think they are bloody lucky to land a job paying £20,000 p.a. What they would probably like to see is the local bus service being reinstated, or more money for schools. And there you are straying into the area of Social Democracy, which isn't what the Bullingdon boy could ever be about.

And BTW in my Remain voting constituency the feedback from the canvassers was that the normal Tory voting streets couldn't stand Boris Johnson which is no doubt why the Tory candidate's vote was down by just over 3,000.

Well, I happen to believe more funding for education in particular - genuine funding- is entirely possible.

Placemats, I'm sorry to hear about your mum. It is worrying when you live a long distance away, will you see her at Christmas?

I agree about giving away small details although I have name changed recently due to stalking (but regulars will recognise me from my French username ).

A lot of my colleagues think Johnson will pivot to a softer Brexit ... I don't think it's impossible but I see no evidence for it so I am neutral on the subject.

However, there will be a lot of pressure from business, and while "fuck business" works when in election mode, it helps not to fuck over the business community when you need to fund spending promises. We will see what happens when Johnson asks for a deal and the EU says "here is one we prepared earlier" (with extensive LPF provisions).

I'm also looking forward to seeing what Sturgeon does.

listening why is he a liar?

He’s promising an absolute sum not an increased amount from what I’ve read

Politics is all about optics

Labour needs to pull back from the hard Left. Labour can't do that at the moment.

Problem with the 'hard left' is how far right the overton window is, as has been said on here before they were no further left than other social democracies, the Graun is very pro neo liberalism in their reporting so Corbyn was unlikely to get a fair hearing and on top of his otherwise shitness (as you would all say)

it's the common authoritarian mindset

This is always what has put me off Labour even though I like many of their policies - the 'We know best', attitude.

The Tories - I just find them unlikeable as a breed, because they appear to be lacking in a social conscience.

He’s promising an absolute sum not an increased amount from what I’ve read

Why is he a liar?

Because his repetition of the largest cash sum is not actually true, is it...

When you look at inflation.

Nicely spun though by him. I hope he invests in maths education and critical thinking so people realise that he has been lying to them.

Politics is all about optics

Homelessness and foodbanks on the rise
People dying due to austerity
People dying on hospital trolleys because there are no beds

How are those optics Bear?

I wonder how the Tories are going to be able to wash off all the blood on their hands, because everytime a person dies on our streets with nowhere to live or young children going cold and hungry and people commiting suicide when theyve been found fit for work against the advice of doctors and consultants they are your responsibility, after all YOU WON

I also think it will be interesting to see how having Tory MPs representing northern and midlands constituencies will play out.

Assuming the CONs intend to be competitive in those constituencies in 5 years time, they are going to have to make policy that at the very least does not damage their constituents' interests.

Margaret Thatcher won elections despite putting millions out of work because those people did not, by and large, live in Tory-voting constituencies. This time, most of the areas with at-risk manufacturing jobs have Tory MPs. I suspect this will concentrate minds wonderfully when the Brexit negotiations start.

The thing is, Listening, unless there is a credible alternative to Johnson, there is no-one to oppose him. Or to vote for in 5 years' time.

If we are stuck with yet another version of Corbyn's Labour people will vote for Johnson.

So there is just no deterrent for Johnson's bullshit and re-structuring.

Corbyn, by the way, was quite honest about where the money was coming from.

The plan was a full-frontal re-structuring of the economic model of neo-liberalism.

He even made a jokey video about it.

It wan't just a question of raising taxes a bit.

Now, it's creditable e was honest - as we said in these threads, Johnson is also planning a massive restructuring of the economic model of the U.K. - and he's not being open about it.

But the thing is, the public votes against it and it's a fair bet they'll vote against it again.

Unless we kick the hard Left out of Labour, we really are stuck with Johnson's plans.

Next election, we are going to have been through 5 hard years and are going to be presented with a two extreme choices.

they are your responsibility, after all YOU WON

They are just as much your responsibility because you fervently supported a twat who couldn’t stop the Tories winning.

I wonder how the Tories are going to be able to wash off all the blood on their hands, because everytime a person dies on our streets with nowhere to live or young children going cold and hungry and people commiting suicide when theyve been found fit for work against the advice of doctors and consultants they are your responsibility, after all YOU WON

This is why we need a decent opposition and a decent media to hold the Conservatives to account for what they do and to make sure people realise it.

The Conservatives will lie and spin. Constantly. People need to see through their bullshit.

They are just as much your responsibility because you fervently supported a twat who couldn’t stop the Tories winning.

Nope still Tory policies

Totally agree, BigChoc.

Bear do you understand how majority governments work? I suggest you look it up

Nope still Tory policies

Indeed - but you allowed them to win

Stop denying it and get angry at your party for letting it happen.

They are just as much your responsibility because you fervently supported a twat who couldn’t stop the Tories winning

What happens is on Boris' watch.

They are just as much your responsibility because you fervently supported a twat who couldn’t stop the Tories winning.

ah no bear I'm not taking ANY of the flak for this shit. I voted remain in the ref, voted LD in the 17 election, voted Lab this time around as the party most likely to oust my cunt of a true blue Tory MP.

I am taking absolutely ZERO responsiblity for the shit that is about to ensue.

Not in my name...