Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

One of my working class Corbyn supporting mates (yes - i know several) lives outside the city in a target seat and he said he was bombarded Day and night by personalised, directed Facebook ads some pretending to be his friends saying anti Corbyn outright lies and smears. He said it was not obvious they were ads they were dressed up to be other things, from mates or local news or "concerned local GP" or whatever. They said labour was in power in the area and had cut their schools and hospital funding. He said he got them on the hour for days before the election. [] is that legal?

It is now.

I'm having a hectic few days (to be honest I think I'm deliberately keeping myself busy to keep my mind off things) so I have missed most of this weekend's posts, but I just wanted to say to squid4 I'm so sorry for the awful time you're having.

It's why the stuff about 'If you vote Conservative, you are voting to kill people' didn't land - it wasn't what people saw themselves as voting for.
In some cases, and I mean that very caveated in knowing not all voted that way but because of comments I've seen and heard round my way I'm mentioning it, the idea was that if people were killed it would be the immigrants or 'scroungers' but not the likes of them. But they were also the type to think Labour only cared about immigrants and so called scroungers. They're probably also the type that would never think about voting Labour anyway.

I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.

Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you...

It doesn't walk in saying,
"Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."

By Michael Rosen

*
I agree with Tatiana that it's much easier for the UK and USA to imagine that they are immune to fascism - because they escaped last time.

And if using the term fascism seems alarmist or hysterical - how about authoritarianism? I personally am not crazy about the idea of living under even a little light authoritarianism. Thanks, but no thanks.

This election has given a blank cheque to a known liar with no aim other than power (Boris Johnson) and a man (Dominic Cummings) whose openly avowed intent is to smash the system so that something more ‘efficient’ can be made. The details of what exactly that is were not part of the manifesto or the election conversation.

The institutions so far in the firing line are; the parts of our media which have a duty to impartiality, the courts, the civil service. These things play an important role in upholding our democracy. (You know - that thing which prevents a fanatic telling us they know best and we all just have to go along with it and don't get a say). So let’s not take any chances, eh?

I shall be writing to my MP to remind them that it is their duty to uphold democracy and I shall never vote for a party that does not do so. I ask everyone who reads this to do the same.

Just who would be your choice as leader ?

Off the top of my head Id like to see Clive Lewis and/or Angela Rayner running but again it would depend on the message and the path they want to take

the parts of our media which have a duty to impartiality

Currently there are none

To be crystal clear, Just, I (personally - and I'm just an internet random) am completely in agreement with you that a return to 'Blairism' is a bad, bad idea.

Your points about under-investment are spot on.

These are crucial points.

(At the moment, I don't feel warm to any of the Leadership contenders. But I hope that changes when I hear what they're offering.)

Just, like them both, I like others too, I'm almost spoilt for choice in my own personal preferences but the difficulty lies in choosing one with the widest appeal.

You Gove survey out. All about TV channels you watch etc. The final question. " Talking to people about the General Election in December 2019, we have found that a lot of people didn’t manage to vote. How about you – did you manage to vote in the General Election? then what did you vote.

We need to hear from people who voted Conservative, and actually listen to what they say, rather than just pretending to listen to what they say.

I voted Tory:-

• Because there was absolutely no chance of Labour getting a majority and I didn’t want another hung parliament
• Because I didn’t want Brexit dragging on any longer than it has to with Labour trying to negotiate yet another deal
• Because I want to Tories to ‘own’ Brexit and get on with it
• Because Labour’s giveaway policies were utterly ridiculous
• Because Corbyn is a stubborn twat with no idea how to be a leader

With regards to 2nd referendum - if Labours policy had not changed then I would not have voted for them..............

I think many others would have felt the same.

It may have kept the Leave vote in the north but what about London and other areas?

And if I'm honest I think many of them do not want a soft Brexit. They want no deal.

And JC as leader would still have lost a hell of a lot of votes in these areas.

I shall be writing to my MP to remind them that it is their duty to uphold democracy and I shall never vote for a party that does not do so.

Why on earth would they waste time caring, if they knew there wasn't going to be another vote, or that if there was, yours won't count ?

It may have kept the Leave vote in the north but what about London and other areas?

The policies were progressive enough to have kept a lot of the younger voters but not sure how that would have panned out up the demographic

the parts of our media which have a duty to impartiality

Currently there are none - C4 and BBC do have a legal duty of impartiality. It's because they receive public funds to broadcast.

The question of how well they uphold that duty is a different thing.

Bear all those reasons support what Cat is saying i.e. a lot of negative reasons for voting Tory. Other than the myth of getting Brexit done, what positives do / did you see in their past performance and their current manifesto?

Why on earth would they waste time caring, if they knew there wasn't going to be another vote, or that if there was, yours won't count ?

I'm just hoping it's not already too late.

You know, I am re-thinking my post about people not liking the hard left being a factor.

I think it was a factor but not decisive.

I am now going for the idea that the progressive groups didn't want to win enough. They thought about 'gaming' a terrible and serious election for small gains, when what we needed was an alliance to stop the Far Right.

If they had done that, the key point about this election would have been clearer: it was an election to stop a potentially Far a Right government, a UK Orban.

We didn't do that - and it was a mistake.

what positives do / did you see in their past performance and their current manifesto?

Not much sadly but my whole point is that I didn’t chose to vote Tory as a positive decision, it was based on the lack of alternatives and shows just how bad the alternative was

Thanks, Bear. 💐

...what we needed was an alliance to stop the Far Right.

If they had done that, the key point about this election would have been clearer: it was an election to stop a potentially Far a Right government, a UK Orban.

^^This.

(And I get that you saw the Conservatives as the 'least worst' option, Bear.

As I keep saying, only time will tell now.

'Tis done.)

I'm just hoping it's not already too late.

It was too late before the referendum.

I've just spent the weekend with my Tory voting family 'celebrating' Johnson's stonking majority with champagne.

How long will it be before they start whining about a long wait for a hospital appointment, or how they had to dip into their savings to pay for a private hip Op? £12K a pop. What if they need two doing and two knee ops? Tell them to enjoy, this is what they voted for.

I didn't have an issue with the policies of Labour.

For me it was just too much over a short period of time.

I want to make sure any changes we are making are done in a sensible way that it won't give my kids/ grandkids an even shittier lot than they are already getting.

So to me, I would prefer that Labour had concentrated on the areas which news help the most.

You can't fix all the rot that has built up over decades in a short time frame.

I also believe that a mixture of capitalism / socialism is best.

Peregrina as much as I mostly love my extended family, they don't need the NHS as they all have private insurance. My cousin did have one terrible pregnancy and relied on a NHS hospital to save her life, I did ask her to remember this the next time she voted, but it was a message that is subsumed in a lifetime of voting Tory. Not only that, but they have a lot of children and I heard / saw how they too have been told and now believe that Tory is best.