Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

Violet I guess we'll see.

Corbyn has just delivered us the worst electoral defeat in over 80 years.

This is being spun every which way on social media, to make the argument that Corbyn "won" something he didn't. And people do seem to genuinely believe that he "won the argument" (or something), but that victory was snatched from his grasp by "FibDems"/the media.

I know Labour Leave voters who wouldn't vote for them because of their second referendum policy, it was a factor.

Have I indicated otherwise?

In a word.

Yes.

Long answer with example:

See comments about not wishing to read Cohen cos you don't like him.

Reading him does not oblige you to agree with everything he says. Merely to reflect on his opinion.

But you don't wish to reflect on his opinion cos you don't like his opinions, which you've not read on this occasion and have instead prejudge as being opinions you don't like cos it's Nick Cohen and he's not in your ideological club.

red analyses coolly and calmly, instead of haranguing us about how shit we are

I agree that the Labour membership may not make a wise decision atm, especially if goaded by continuing Tory triumphalism
WIth Tom Watson out as deputy, maybe a Labour member can post whether the NEC could appoint an interim leader, or whether the PLP could elect one ?
cat, poster, frank ....?

imo, the best chance is if at least 2 of the 3 Labour "tribes" can come together to support one candidate of the centre-left of the party
They can no longer indulge in e.g. the factionalism of the Brownites vs Blairites which diverted energy and may have helped Corbyn slip in the first time

Maybe red can assess how feasible this hope is, for say Starmer or Phillips to get this support before facing the candidate of the hard left
or would any of the best candidates even wish to stand atm with British politics being so toxic ?

If the membership think they won't win next GE anyway, then they'll go for the candidate whose views they support

It's no good screaming at Westministenders - many of whom aren't even Labour members - if they do that, any more than screaming at voters in the GE or the referendum.

Democracy means the freedom of other people to vote disaster for themselves and for you

My own opinion for the next leader is promise little in the manifesto but do a lot if you get in, trying to tackle all of the uk's inequalities in 1 manifesto, while being a noble move, was an ill judged one as was going against the Tory message of dither and delay, so add to that the insistence of a PV in the manifesto demanded by Remainers (I include myself in that) added to the anger of the Lexiters so they need to reign it in and just fix it if they get in if that makes sense

Class. OK it is a British thing to label people. I am better than you, no you are beneath me and so on.

What exactly is the definition of "working class" could someone tell me please. Most of us work whether it be in high paying or min wage jobs.

A bit baffled TBH.

That is fascinating, Red.

I've posted earlier about how the current Left discourse on the GE result makes me feel as a working class Midlands-born woman.

I would also direct people to the candidate Labour imposed on Rother Valley. She was a living, breathing example of 'out of touch'.

For what it's worth, I was impressed to see that Lisa Nandy actually understands why buses, not trains, mattered more to voters outside cities.

I think I read that Corbyns vote share in 2017 and 2019 was better than Brown, Milliband and Blair (2005). Happy to be corrected.

So it really depends of what way you spin it.

GhostofFrankGrimes That's fairly true - but only 'fairly'.

The defeat this time is massive.

Another loss like that and Labour is history.

he's not in your ideological club.

My ideology is that no one should use others suffering for gain, some of you seem happy to sell some morals for power, I dont have to agree to your opinion whether you think I need to or should, meh

So it really depends of what way you spin it.

It doesn’t really - he lost.

It’s like saying more is spent on the NHS now than in 2005 - it doesn’t make it good enough

I know Labour Leave voters who wouldn't vote for them because of their second referendum policy, it was a factor.

This is true, but Labour could have taken the sting out of this by not losing so many of its remain voters (a much bigger group).

The ridiculous shilly-shallying over Brexit really didn't help. I do think that they ended up in a reasonable place (although I didn't agree with the idea that a PM could remain neutral about his own deal) - but it took far too long to get there.

In 2017 it was spun that Corbyn didn't lose the election because he defied expectations. This turned into the fallacy that he somehow had a moral victory by the hard left.

The piety of this meant that the Labour Party was always on a hiding to nothing for not booting him for losing the election.

The membership did not want to admit they had been defeated. So they bought into the fantasy that Corbyn could magically convince people who hadn't voted for him in 2017 to change their minds.

Then told people to piss off cos they were tories if they didn't buy into the Corbyn cult.

Sorry nope.

You don't get off without being told outright to belt up with that shite at this point.

Many of us have been told we were Corbynites throughout these threads when we were telling you for years that Corbyn is part of the bloody problem. We were on your side.

But nope. You knew better how we should vote and how we would vote.

It's bonkers.

That's an excellent post Red, even though I voted Remain I have been appalled at the way Leave voters in my family have been demonised, it put me off the People's Vote lot and I never wanted another referendum. I wasn't suprised by the Tory landslide at all or by the loss of some of the Labour heartlands.

My ideology is that no one should use others suffering for gain

But no one I know has done that - every person I know who voted Tory did so because they believed it was better than Corbyn bankrupting the entire country.

The working class is fragmented and cant be lumped together. I'm from a wc background (large city) and don't identify with wc leave voters from smaller towns. They have different life experiences to me, generally see immigration as a negative whereas I see it as a positive. I have first hand experience of this through my in laws (wc leave voters, small town). We are all however traditionally Labour.

Interesting...this is up to 2017

You don't get off without being told outright to belt up with that shite at this point.

not sure if that was directed at me but if it was not sure how to reply to that, normally Id have said fuck off probably

Look at the collapse of the Lib Dem vote.

But no one I know has done that - every person I know who voted Tory did so because they believed it was better than Corbyn bankrupting the entire country.

Did fucking austerity pass you by Bear?

It’s actually hysterical how you are bowing and scraping to RTB for saying what I have been 😂

Good on you RTB - I know you dislike me too but I’m glad someone is telling some home truths.

From now on it’s about damage limitation.

Oh well.

Maybe Labour won after all.

And we can keep ourselves warm with the moral victory.

Let's vote for another Corbyn.

Too bad the electorate haven't had their consciousness raised enough.

Pity we can't deselect them.

Never mind, I'm sure if we do the exact same next time, we'll win again.

My god some of you infuriate me but I love you all dearly, just wanted to say that incase you didnt know I'm sure I infuriate more than infuriate me

I hope to God we dont do the same thing again cat, I'm unlikely to see the next election but I hope my kids can get a fairer shot at life