Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

For what it's worth, I was impressed to see that Lisa Nandy actually understands why buses, not trains, mattered more to voters outside cities

Burnham was pointing out that bus fare in Manchester £4 but £1.50 for equivalent in London today.

There's another North / South divide and why there's resentment.

I drive to Manchester and park. If its v busy or I'm very lazy I'll pay over a tenner for the privilege for just a few hours.

But its cheaper and easier than me getting public transport especially from where I live outside the Greater Manchester border.

Manchester traffic issues are horrendous, especially when there's roadworks. I've got stuck for an hour and a half on the mancuncian way when the roadworks were at their worst. Complete gridlock.

Just I don't know Bear from Adam - but I know some people did vote for Parties other than Labour because of the reasons she's giving.

She may well be goady - I don't know.

But it's still true.

I know because I went canvassing.

I went canvassing in one of the reddest bits of Red London.

You went canvassing.

People must have said similar to you on the doorstep.

I'm not saying vote for another Corbyn. Thinking that the next leader is going to make a miraculous difference is wishful thinking. Brexit will have to play out now and then we will see what can be salvaged from the wreckage.

Burnham was pointing out that bus fare in Manchester £4 but £1.50 for equivalent in London today.

This is one of the reasons I hope they dont bring back the parachuting of candidates as in the Blair years, local knowledge and the challenges faced locally need to be an important factor in the next leader and I agree with most here who say it has to be out of the London/South east bubble

I love you too, Just.

And I am going to shut up about Labour.

Please forgive me - but I am going to make a pitch for not-another-Corbyn.

I apologise to all I offend.

That's an excellent c and p Red If only Labour HQ had understood this. If only they had focused on the concerns of ordinary people.
Dawn Butler and her gay giraffes spring to mind.

The only way is up? doesn't look like it from here. The depths of hell maybe.

Corbynites need to acknowledge how incompetent a leader he is and how he repels most people not on the hard left
Whether they think that unpopularity is fair or not; it's a fact

However, Blairites and Brownites, as in red's article above, also need to acknowledge how the centre and right of the party caused such anger in the North
by not doing anything for them after the deindustrialisation of the Thatcher years and the effects of automation,
not giving the North the tools to rise again

And Brown in that notorious incident was as contemptuous to an ordinary person as anyone on the hard left.

So all wings of the party contributed over the years to their defeat
They need to stop fighting each other and turn all their energy onto fighting the Tories

Any new moderate leader needs not just charm, but credible policies for those in the North and the Midlands.
imo also improving rights for workers and for renters, to help the lives of the precariat everywhere

Just The NEC did parachute in candidates.

People were furious about it!!

RTB can I ask you you voted for in then end?

I’m pretty sure it wasn’t LD or Labour so that leaves AN Other or Tory

People must have said similar to you on the doorstep.

I can neither confirm nor deny that it might have been suggested to me that I'm a little to robust in my arguments to doorstop people

People were furious about it!!

Rightly so

Transport is false equivalence. Ordinary folk can make a living in Manchester. Terraced house for 100k wouldn't get you a garden shed in London. Yes there is plenty of poverty in the big cities but the "real" left behind are in the smaller towns - poor infrastructure, lack of opportunities in general.

BigChoc Yes.

And I've said elsewhere that I truly admire - genuinely - the vision, verve, and passion for inclusivity that many Momentum members have brought.

And they probably Mark the ultimate direction of travel for the UK - if we can get through the decades between the future and now.

Rural poverty is very grim and even more isolating than urban poverty
I come from that

Ordinary Folk

Actually pissing myself laughing.

In an entirely ordinary way.

It's a massive ask but we need a real unity Leader. And the unity has to be between so many different elements.

A repeat of Corbyn just isn't enough.

Rural poverty is very grim and even more isolating than urban poverty
I come from that

Having a car where I live is almost a tax, it has to be paid or you cant get anywhere for work, appointments and you can see its even harder on the younger gen when everything costs more and wages have stagnated and you know your bills are obviously less because you can be paid less for the same hours work, they would also like disabled people to work for less because you know we dont understand money

Anyway ... the Conservatives. Brexit.

Bear I don't dislike anyone here.

I get bloody frustrated at times.

But I think that's been directed in multiple directions particularly of late.

I think we all have political blind spots and the thing we need to do most is always keep trying to remind ourselves of those.

This last few weeks have been hard. I've invested so much time and emotion over the last few years.

It's come to a head and a lot of my concerns have come to pass.

We are now into another phase and I don't want to be spending the next god knows how long reflecting on how much more has come to pass. On both sides of this debate

I've said before that I feel the difference between many Remainers and leavers is substantially smaller than people perceive but because they haven't talked because of this barrier if leave and remain its been unnoticed.

One of the few positives now is that this remain / leave business crumbles somewhat. Its not relevant on the same way. It will fade. Yeah there will be the toxic militants but most sensible headed moderates know the game is over.

That means the nature of conversation will change. It has defused a lot of the tensions and issues that had built up into an almost explosive mix.

What happens next is therefore in a different environment. The political landscape is completely different.

We need to spot this and adjust to it. Failure to adapt dooms us to irrelevance.

It'll be difficult for Labour as a party of social inclusion to win over people who see immigration as a problem particularly with dog whistles so prevalent in british politics atm. I don't think the UK is capably of a grown up discussion on the subject.

cult for Labour as a party of social inclusion to win over people who see immigration as a problem particularly with dog whistles so prevalent in british politics atm

I think that we will see more immigration - we have high levels of employment - although it's not reliable and there are many gig jobs- we have an ageing population and we need to grow.

Most immigration has come from non European countries over the years - and that's been something within our control.

Well hopefully with Corbyn leaving the focus will now turn to the institutional racism and islamophobia in the ruling party with as much force as anti semitsm was rightly so condemned and investigated in the Labour party, and every utterance by any supporter, member or MP should be Boris' to answer for

With regard to workers' and renters' rights - Labour included that in the manifesto.

I do hope that, if a 'moderate' becomes Leader, that direction of travel won't change.

But it's hard.

Property is now very tightly woven into how the economy works.

It's hard to see how you begin to change that in a serious way without them wading into the deep waters that do alarmed the electorate.

I would love to see stats on where Labour members, especially Corbyn supporters, are geographically

Are they nearly all from the big cities,
or are a significant number from deindustrialised areas like the North & Wales ?

• angered by the neglect of the Blair and Brown years, but rebelling against the moderate left rather than Labour as a whole

What kind of jobs do they have and how many are from the precariat, or reliant on benefits ?
How many renters and how many home-owners ?