Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

Violet I really hope you're right.

Going by the people I've been with today, you're wrong.

Most of the more sensible members have been driven out of the Party.

And it's the members who vote for the Leader.

Once a govt has a working majority of 30-40 or more, there is very little an Opposition can do in Parliament except make a noise

• the bills get passed and on the govt time schedule

A Labour leader like Starmer would make a more effective noise, but then BJ will avoid most PMQs

This current set of Tory MPs have been cleansed of rebels and potential rebels who might put country before party and career

Even having their opposition fairly reported is a mountain for any Labour Opposition to climb
Would Blair have done so well if he hadn't bought Murdoch's support ?

Another politician making speeches in a hall raises zero interest
Hence why the demonising by Tories of demonstrations that are large enough for even the BBC to mention
The govt would like to make mass demonstrations of dissent much more difficult, alongside photo ID hindering future dissent via the ballot box and organised tactical voting.

Remember too that Labour & LDems at the next GE will have the additional hurdle of new constituency boundaries that will certainly be approved in the HoC, to benefit the Tories by another 20-30 seats

What could divert the Tory plans for a hard Brexit is if they think the conseqences could lose their new seats
These new MPs will put great pressure via the 1922 Committee to stop anything that would risk that

cat you might be ok with others suffering to get into power its something I cannot stomach (Blair put the blood of innocent iraqi's and british service people on my hands because I voted for him, never again) and I will walk away from the party if thats a direction they would be willing to take

Once a govt has a working majority of 30-40 or more, there is very little an Opposition can do in Parliament except make a noise

That is such a cop out

Current Labour failed to effectively oppose a minority government

The hard left didn't just fail to connect with large parts of the electorate.

They shouted, harangued and at times abused others for not agreeing with them.

They failure to try and understand the hopes and fears of moderates.

Thus when it came to it, they offered nothing to parts of the electorate but an aggressive 'if you cared about the NHS you'd vote for us' or didn't allay the demon of the 'there no money left' legacy which played a part in austerity being a thing.

It was the lack of self awareness.

The thing is the membership hasn't changed since Thursday so getting the section of the membership who voted for him and still overwhelmingly supported him (unlike the wider public) to change their minds over night and accept they made a mistake rather than lashing out and reverting to form, blaming others for not being just like them, is a pretty tall order.

It's going to take a long time. And realistically when an election takes places this necessarily self reflection won't be complete. Which leaves the next leader liable to be the wrong choice for the next election.

The odds of turning it around from here by the next election aren't great.

As I've said on a previous one of these threads Bearbehind likes to come on Mumsnet to be as repetitive and goady as possible. Remember her on a Glastonbury thread arguing with a load of Cure fans that Kylie was so much better, she went on and on like she does on here, just ignore, she's trying to play us all.

But this is all navel gazing

is Labour going to really not appoint an interim leader tonight?

is it really going to give the Tories free rein to unravel good governance over the next few months?

REALLY ?
REALLY ?
wtf are they thinking?
certainly not for the good of the UK rather than their own egos

violet, being repetitive doesn’t actually make something untrue

I’m not actually sure what you contribute to these threads really other than bringing up another random thread.

Why do you think Labour lost and what they should do differently?

People like bear are being deliberately obtuse/cruel.

When your life is going to be made harder - much harder - by the way someone voted knowing that fact - it's rather hard not to take it personally.

I'm struggling atm.

I know many people - inc my pils - who voted tory. Knowing that tory austerity has killed and will kill more innocent people. They didn't care. Or maybe they did? Just not enough.

I guess that's where we are as a nation now but I'm not going to pretend I don't think that's a fucking tragedy.

A lost generation.

I don't blame the Tories for letting Blair win and drag us into the Iraq disaster
That was Blair's fault and Labour's for letting him

I won't blame Labour for whatever disaster BJ and his cabal make of Brexit
That will be the Tories fault for letting them

"The buck stops here"
Whoever is in power owns what they do
Whoever votes for them owns that too

That, BigChoc and Listening is very true.

BCF it is more than make a noise...if the Opposition challenge truly unfair policies then they can stand on this in the next election and gain support for it!

I was with VSO for five years, working in countries with NO opposition and the cruelty the governments got away with was staggering. And many people remained unaware to a degree, because there was no opposition to articulate it.

RTB has just pretty much said what I’ve been trying to say but you’ll listen to her rather than me 😂

That is such a cop out

That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. - Nye Bevan

It needed repeating, once a Tory alway a Tory and I'm sure you cant see all that if you just keep repeating 'its the oppositions fault'

Please read the Nick Cohen article I linked to.

Please.

Especially anyone who is in a position to vote for the next Opposition Leader.

I would say that no Labour voter could reasonably expect that Blair would lie to get us into a war
That was horrendous

So that is his fault and (most of) the Labour Cabinet for not doing their job and scrutinising him

Nick Cohen? Nah I'll pass

Daydreaming That's (part of) what the Nick Cohen article says.

I am surprised that the Conservatives don't want Scotland to leave - because surely that would help them even more - if the boundaries weren't changed.

New policies need to be affordable, relevant, and definitely targeted at addressing the needs of both younger people, as well as the middle aged to older generation in those target seats.

The Conservatives will play dirty, They will lie, cheat and go low. Many people don't give a shit if they go low. Hateful politics wins.

How do you beat that?

Is there anything to be learnt from the election of Barack Obama?

It's a great article cat

I see we're still not doing a post mortem on the centrists/Lib Dems/Change UK. Spent more time criticising Corbyn than the Tories. Demanded Labour back a second referendum which ironically was the death knell for the party. Swinson, Soubry and Umunna were all ultimately useless in their cause.

It wasnt just Labour who didnt have their finger in the pulse the entire remain side underestimated leavers feelings.

because there was no opposition to articulate it.

You also need a free press to report it

My feelings about soubry are well documented frank

Useless bint

Agree with Violet. Bear has nothing interesting or nuanced to say, just wants to pick over the same old ground. The aim is to make the thread so dull that no one comes here any more. If that's what you all want ~shrug~

As for Labour, I think it will take more than one term to sort out this mess. The problem is that large sections of the party membership believe that because they weren't trounced in 2017 they "won" something, and they also think that they "won the argument" this time. I am not optimistic about any serious reflection taking place.

Especially anyone who is in a position to vote for the next Opposition Leader.

Anyone can join. I might rejoin myself, for what little good it will do. If you can't beat the entryists you might as well join them.