Westminstenders: 10 day count down

[RedToothBrush]

10 days to go...

... Wake me up when the shit show is over.

I don't get to read this thread very much - but why are so many Brexit Arms people swarming around here today? Has the Brexit Arms got boring?

I don't think DD is justifying the bedroom tax with the military thing, but talking about how if it was done the way the military do things it would be different and fairer than the bedroom tax.

Since when did 'fairness' come into it with wealthy Tories? As far as they are concerned, people on benefits are part of the undeserving poor and are feckless. The concept of 'There but for the Grace of God, go I' seems not to trouble them. We wouldn't expect thoughts of God to trouble Johnson but would with JR-M and his much paraded Catholicism.

Israel's foreign minister says he hopes Corbyn loses British election reut.rs/2rfHag1

Corbyn is an anti-semite from a family steeped in antisemitism. His brother is a complete conspiracy-theorst wacko. His son has made offensive public racist remarks about Isreal.

Johnson is simply a racist, very equal opportunities in his bigotry against piccanninies, letterboxes etc.

I agree about wealthy Conservative voters' attitudes towards benefits claimants, but I don't see the relevance to noting that the army etc manage this sort of thing in a fairer way. If anything it should be the other way round with the young military people having the current bedroom tax style system, if anyone is going to have to have it, and old and disabled people having at least some of the military system features such as not being obliged to move if already in a house that's too big according to the rules, but not having to pay more. If the army can manage to implement a system like this more fairly then the very least we should expect is for it to be implemented more fairly for housing benefit recipients too, even if our ultimate aim is for no one to be affected by it.

Re public transport, I think we desperately need subsidies to make public transport the easier option, as well as lots of state investment. The whole country will benefit from that, even people who don't use the trains, because of the benefits to the environment (less pollution, but also just less traffic on the roads) as well as to business through customers and employees being able to travel easily. We won't get what we need if we rely on private companies providing it who only want to cherry pick the most profitable routes to run.

The whole country will benefit from that

You will never ever sell anything to a Tory unless it benefits them. Directly. Every time you mention benefits to anyone else, you lose a Tory and an angel dies.

I know there are a lot of people who think like that, which is why I think it's important to point out things like the knock on beneficial effects for everyone of policies that on the face of it only benefit some people.

Those people exist and more will be lurking than post here, but not all of them have to end up being Tory voters, even if that's the way they instinctively tend to think, if you like.

I take a hard line against Labour AS but I can’t point to anything that proves JC is AS, I don’t think it’s clear what his personal views are.

I found the mural shocking, but his supportive comments don’t prove anything.

However, I do hold him personally responsible for presiding over the snowballing of AS in the LP.

I know there are a lot of people who think like that, which is why I think it's important to point out things like the knock on beneficial effects for everyone of policies that on the face of it only benefit some people.

Nope. Still not selling it. The average Tory doesn't see any benefit for them if something benefits everyone.

I know it seems almost cartoon characterish and immature, but that really is how the Tories manage to appeal to people in spite of their own nature. Brexit being the shining example of such.

There's a much better case to be made for the trickle-up benefits of a healthy, well housed, well educated populace, than there is for trickle-down economics.

I don't get to read this thread very much - but why are so many Brexit Arms people swarming around here today?

It's really weird - there's a surge each time there is good news for the Conservative/Brexit/ERGists. So when the poll lead increases for example, or MEPs defect to the Tories.

I can only assume it reflects some long term suppressed underlying doubts so there's a kind of relief or vindication at still being on the leading team?

In the unlikely event of the roles been reversed and there being any Remain good news I certainly wouldn't be visiting the Brexit arms though, which is why I find it odd.

There's a much better case to be made for the trickle-up benefits of a healthy, well housed, well educated populace, than there is for trickle-down economics.

Case for who ?

I don't think DD is justifying the bedroom tax with the military thing, but talking about how if it was done the way the military do things it would be different and fairer than the bedroom tax.

Since when did 'fairness' come into it with wealthy Tories? As far as they are concerned, people on benefits are part of the undeserving poor and are feckless. The concept of 'There but for the Grace of God, go I' seems not to trouble them.

And yet I'm not 'wealthy' & have actually been quite open about the fact that I have been on the most basic of benefits for the last 4 years 🤷🏻‍♀️

There's a much better case to be made for the trickle-up benefits of a healthy, well housed, well educated populace, than there is for trickle-down economics.

I like that. Will probably shamelessly use it. Thank you.

But what if you're not trying to talk to the average Tory, but to Tory-leaning floating voters?

"Do this because it's kind to poor people" (a caricature of a the sort of lefty view that more right wing people might mentally add the word 'undeserving' to before 'poor')

Vs.

"Do this because, yes, it is kind to poor people and that's good, but also it makes us into a stronger and more resilient country where all sorts of things work better and we are all better off and safer". That statement is just true, and if it needs saying explicitly to some more floating people before they'll vote anything other than Tory, then it's worth saying IMO rather than being scathing about them all as lost causes.

For some reason, Tories never criticise their own leader for being racist, sexist, homophobic
or for having been sacked sacked from jobs for lying

whereas those here on the left and centre have been criticising Corbyn's faults for the last 3 years.

it doesn't count when a Tory leader does it ?
It doesn't count when the Tory party is islamphobic ?
It doesn't count when the Tory party receive millions in donations from Russians

• even when BJ personally received Russian donations for his leadership campaign

That's not just in the runup to a GE, when people naturally tend to be more partisan & cautious, but it's over the last 3 years

• never any criticism of Tory politicians over racism or Russian funding

Or maybe the recent influx aren't here to debate the leaders or policies at all, but just to slag off Labour ?

A really, really long list of awful things Boris Johnson has said about women, LGBT+ people and people of colour

https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-offensive-comments-women-gay-people-minorities-lgbt-9215711

Frost And Ice Is Forecast For Election Day. Emergency Measures Are Being Prepared To Help Voters Get To The Polls

Which party will suffer the most ?
WIll the small membership, lack of feet on the ground hurt the Tories ?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/winter-weather-election-day-emergency-plans?

Speaking to a Labour source on the ground last night, they think bad weather could help them.

Theory is they have the groundgame to get their vote out
but Cons need ex Lab voters to come out for them, who could be deterred by any excuse, incl snow/cold.

You will never ever sell anything to a Tory unless it benefits them. Directly. Every time you mention benefits to anyone else, you lose a Tory and an angel dies

I think this sums up the mentality on this thread. 🤔

Whilst you believe this utter nonsense about everyone who’s ever voted Tory you’ll never get your head out of the sand

I disagree with most of Labours policies precisely because they would benefit me and I don’t need it

I'm glad to see that #page48 is trending on twitter (took a while for it to percolate through but people finally appear to have woken up to it.)

Being pointed out the "coincidence" of it being page 48 as article 48 of the Weimar republic constitution is the one that states:

The president, under certain circumstances, may take emergency measures without the prior consent of the Reichstag

I don't actually give them credit for knowing that and doing it on purpose - cockup rather than conspiracy, but it's a chilling parallel nevertheless. They are telling us (even if they don't mean to) exactly where we are headed if we vote for them.

but I don't see the relevance to noting that the army etc manage this sort of thing in a fairer way.

The current Government and their supporters do not want to manage it in a fairer sort of way. There is a lot they could have done already, but they choose not to. They could immediately find money for the NHS; after all a bung was found for the DUP, not to mention the amount wasted on Brexit preparations already. They daren't tell the public that they want to privatise it, so they are having to do this by stealth.

Has the Brexit Arms got boring?

Yes, it has descended into silly nastiness and gleeful braggadocio.

I used to find it quite interesting.

I disagree with most of Labours policies precisely because they would benefit me and I don’t need it

But they will also benefit the people who do need it. Need it desperately. Don't you care about them? Isn't the fact that everybody benefits, including those already doing well for themselves, a lovely perk of their policies? Isn't that a country worth living in?

I think this got buried in other discussions

schoolcuts.org.uk/

Whoever it was who linked to the Jewish research group findings from 2017 that there is more anti-Semitism among the far right and Conservatives than among the Labour party, as well as less in the Labour party than in the population as a whole, please could you post it again? I can't find it, and I think we need it at this point in the thread.