Westminstenders: 10 day count down

[RedToothBrush]

10 days to go...

... Wake me up when the shit show is over.

Isn't the fact that everybody benefits, including those already doing well for themselves, a lovely perk of their policies?

Absolutely not because, contrary to popular belief on here, this stuff actually has to be paid for.

I can't find it, and I think we need it at this point in the thread.

Yes, you definitely need a way to desperately deflect reality as the truth about Labour's virulent antisemitism erupts all over the media:

news.sky.com/story/labour-a-welcoming-refuge-for-antisemitism-under-corbyn-says-jewish-groups-dossier-11878624

Jeremy Corbyn has made Labour a "welcoming refuge" for antisemitism, a dossier submitted to Britain's human rights watchdog warns.

The Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) claimed top officials were "ignoring, denying, relativising and accepting" the issue.

It accused the leader of "publicly supporting antisemites and antisemitic tropes" under a party "cast in his image” that is now “institutionally antisemitic".

Labour is the second political party to have ever been probed by the watchdog, after the British National Party (BNP).

JLM said it became a "frequent occurrence" for Mr Corbyn's staff to ask to be copied into emails about antisemitism complaints, who then suggested or denied a sanction based on "ideas about the political persuasion of staff and the complainant".

One party official allegedly demanded batches of complaints to be uploaded onto USB sticks and delivered to Mr Corbyn’s staff office for them to "make recommendations" on further action.

The woman who was told to do so was also "instructed to lie to anyone who asked her where she was going, or what she was doing", the group said.

Corbyn is an anti-semite from a family steeped in antisemitism. His brother is a complete conspiracy-theorst wacko. His son has made offensive public racist remarks about Isreal.

Why is it relevant what JC's family are like wrt anti-semitism?

My parents are extremely racist, I'm not. I'm fairly extremely left-wing and supportive of JC, my Brexit Party supporting parents do not in any way share my views.

At least focus on a persons own behaviour not that of their family.

Also, I follow these threads closely and have a lot of respect for many posters and it is disappointing to see people being so confrontational to other posters. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view and no hearts and minds are won in this way:-(.

Cendrillion rants on a lot about the evils of Jeremy Corbyn, but goes awfully quiet when you ask them why they support Boris Johnson who knowingly supported the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia, knowing those arms were being used to kill civilians.

Awfully quiet.

So strange.

Absolutely not because, contrary to popular belief on here, this stuff actually has to be paid for.

But that is a choice. At the moment, we 'chose' to spend it on an 'Independent' nuclear deterrent, Trident, which isn't independent. We 'chose' to spend it on Brexit preparations which were money down the drain. We chose to spend it on tax cuts for the already wealthy. We could choose to spend on better public transport, better housing and better education and the whole country would benefit indirectly. But the super wealthy wouldn't see the £££££ piling up in their bank accounts.

Cendrillion, how about the conservative party’s virulent support of regimes that support terrorism, leading to actual deaths?

Nope?

Nothing?

So strange.

Would that be Boris Johnson the racist homophobic misogynist Utterly?
Yes very strange that seems to pass Cendrillion by.

Theory is they have the groundgame to get their vote out
but Cons need ex Lab voters to come out for them, who could be deterred by any excuse, incl snow/cold.

This there is some truth in this especially if they are relying on demographics that don't vote consistently.

As for "paying for stuff", neither of the major parties has credible tax and spend policies. And both of them are chucking money at the votes they need the most, not the people that need it most.

Everyone is entitled to their own point of view and no hearts and minds are won in this way:-(.

There are some posters who only come on these threads to goad, and will not have their hearts and minds changed. They are of a piecw with the sort who years later said that Hitler was right, or that Communism would have worked if it had been implemented properly. Nothing short of a Damascene conversion would change their minds.

Absolutely not because, contrary to popular belief on here, this stuff actually has to be paid for.

And the labour manifesto is fully costed. 163 well respected economists wrote to the financial times backing the plan. There is no such costing or backing to the tory manifesto. Plus there is a great black hole of how they will pay for anything once a hard brexit decimates the economy, drives business abroad and deprives thousands of people of their jobs. So if worrying where the money is coming from is your main reason not to support policy, any policy, then refuting the labour manifesto - over any other - is ludicrous.

A reminder that no impact assessment of the Johnson Brexit has been done.

This means that basic economic due-diligence has been neglected.

And the labour manifesto is fully costed.

What an utter fantasy. Where is the 58 billion for the Waspi bribe coming from? Where are the hundreds of billions for all the nationalisations coming from, especially things like broadband that Labour laughably promises to nationalise and then provide for free?

Nothing short of a Damascene conversion would change their minds.

Would that involve Damascus steel ?

Absolutely not because, contrary to popular belief on here, this stuff actually has to be paid for.

And when we pay for it, we get something for it. We avoid the costs of means-testing benefits that outweigh what we gain by not paying them for everyone. We also gain the less tangible social cohesion that comes from everyone being treated exactly the same. We get all the indirect benefits of everyone in the country being lifted up a little bit even though some people will have paid more than others.

Re selfishness: for whatever reason - brain wiring, socialisation, life experiences - a big chunk of the country are extremely vigilant to the possibility of other people potentially getting 'something for nothing' and that feeling outweighs more rational considerations of balancing the costs and benefits of certain policies. We can't change that just like that. How do we stop them fucking things up for everyone else? Pointing out the more selfish benefits to them of more centrist or leftwing policies is surely worth doing, even if other people don't need them pointing out, if it helps them see alternatives to voting for a Tory party led by people who are far more deeply self-centred and psychopathic than the majority of their members.

Where has the money for trident, for wars, for billionaire tax cuts, for brexit come from? All that money can be redirected to better use.

Some generalisations about Tories are born out by the facts

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/boris-johnson-incapable-tory-party-islamophobia-problem

"A YouGov poll earlier this year unveiled the chilling finding that
two thirds of Tory members believe parts of Britain operate under sharia law.

YouGov adds that
almost half of Tories believed in the myth of no-go zones where “non-Muslims are not able to enter”

Where has the money for trident, for wars,

All that spending's part of our 2% NATO commitment. If we didn't spend it on wars we'd spend it on something else military. Or upset Mr Trump even more.

There are some posters who only come on these threads to goad, and will not have their hearts and minds changed. They are of a piecw with the sort who years later said that Hitler was right, or that Communism would have worked if it had been implemented properly. Nothing short of a Damascene conversion would change their minds.

I think this is true, but I also think the mantra "think of the lurkers" is always worth remembering.

Several Muslim Conservative politicians & members have tried to get the party to address its Islamophobia problem:

Sajid Javid, Chancellor of the Exchequer

During the Tory leadership election, called for an enquiry into Islamophobia within the Tory Party.
BJ - and the other contenders - agreed

Now BJ is leader, that's another promise that disappeared
when will the Tory Islamophobia enquiry happen ?

Baroness Warsi, former Conservative Party co-chair:

Her comment on the day 2 Tory candidates were suspended for anti-semitism:

Sayeeda Warsi@SayeedaWarsi

Another day another @Conservatives found to have a history of bigotry
- this time Holocaust denial

Where has the money for trident

Trident is actually the biggest joke in the Labour manifesto. They’ve committed to renewing it because of Union pressure, but everyone knows that a PM Corbyn would be a unilateralist pacifist.

So Labour policy is to spend countless billions on Trident, but without achieving any of the deterrent effect that is the whole point of having nuclear weapons. The worst of all possible worlds!

I can cut & paste for as long as the ploppers do ....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SayeedaWarsi,,BaronessWarsi#Resignation

In May 2018, Warsi, who had been raising the issue of Islamophobia within the party for more than two years,
stated that
(then) Prime Minister Theresa May should publicly acknowledge that
Islamophobia is a problem in the Conservative Party and that the party was in denial about the problem.

In a statement she said:
"Up to now, sadly, there are certain parts of the party that have been in denial about this issue."[69][70]

She told Business Insiderr^:
"It's very widespread. It exists right from the grassroots, all the way up to the top"
and claimed Conservative leaders are not taking the problem seriously because
"they don't think it is going to damage them because that community doesn't vote for them in any great numbers."
[71][72]

In July, a week after the Muslim Council of Britain repeated its call for an independent inquiry into Islamophobia and accused the Conservatives of turning blind eye to Islamophobia claims,

[73] Warsi called on the Conservatives to launch a "full independent inquiry" into Islamophobia in the party and warned the Conservatives were pursuing a politically damaging policy of denial about the problem in its own ranks.

She accused Conservative Chair Brandon Lewis of a "woefully inept" response to recent complaints
and added that MP Zac Goldsmith should receive "mandatory diversity training" following his unsuccessful attempt to beat Sadiq Khan to become Mayor of London.[74]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-twitter-antisemitic-jewish-labour-member-corbyn-momentum-a9184601.html

Warsi .......also accused Mr Gove of failing to combat racism in his own party.
She said:
"Michael's on a mission to fight antisemitism - noble cause.

"But you can’t feed one form of racism and profess to fight another because that’s not challenging bigotry, it’s playing politics.

"And both British Jews and British Muslims deserve better than this divisive approach."

So it would be better to scrap Trident then
and use that 100 billion for say improving public transport

Lots of Labour logic in action:

Labour supporters: “Don’t vote Conservative because they’re horrible bigots”.

Also Labour supporters: “Vote Labour because who cares that they’re horrible bigots”.

Oh dear!