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The weekend has seen the leaders question time debates.

Johnson failed to answer a question and the BBC edited later edited footage to change laughter at him to applause.

Swinson continues to prove that the Lib Dem campaign planners don't understand the electorate. They based the campaign around her and the more the public see her and the more she opens her gob she proves she's the witless headgirl who really knows fuck all.

Corbyn has now adopted a neutral 2nd referendum position. Far too late.

Jo Johnson apparently said that a good election manifesto is one people aren’t talking about 48 hrs later, and it seems that the Conservatives really have gone for that strategy.

Johnson had promised a manifesto for change yet of the three main parties it seems far from that. It avoids controversy for the most part, but also doesn't offer solutions to some of our biggest problems like social care. But with the Tories so ahead in the polls, the status quo and making sure they don't have a repeat of the 'dementia tax' car crash seems to be the order of the day. Because Brexit is going to going to provide a magic solution instead...

Meanwhile the Labour Party have gone completely the other way and really have gone for it and come up with ideas. With a mixed response from the public and press.

And I still can't tell you what is in the LD one, cos Prince Andrew...

This week should see the election come into focus as postal voting starts. As it stands its hard to bet on anything but a Tory majority.

How about "anti Likud". Just an idea.

The problem with this is it makes it seem like it's a recent issue. It's not. One of my best friends mothers is a journalist who has covered the Palestinian crisis for decades. He remembers being in Gaza when he was around 16 (he had very interesting school holidays)- full press credentials on display and they were shot at by Israeli soldiers...... so it's not just this government.

I would say this NHS is the top story today.

And when you rightly raise these concerns to you link it to a particular religion when ascribing blame?

Is it just me, or does that not make sense ?

mrslaughan - I know the NZ health system system has changed a lot over the last few decades. We went there in the mid 70s (74-76) but it is now (as far as I am aware) closer to the Australian system with its insurance and co-payments (and charge to see GPs).

Dad was a radiologist so not in primary care at all.

I typically refer to Saudi Arabia and Iran as "theocratic dictatorships"
Also Afghanistan, Iraq and any country that has just stoned / flogged another woman
I've never specified the actual religion

I also think a major problem is that Israeli govt policy has for many years now been driven by religious parties,
BUT this may be the first time I've actually posted that anywhere

I normally post that the problem is that Israeli govts have been driven by the hard right for years, which is also true

So you've made me realise that I have been one-sided wrt religious criticism - but not against Israel

Apropos of Gaza, I can highly recommend Mark Thomas "Walking the Wall" (book and live show DVD) and "Showtime from the Frontline" which documents his attempts to set up a comedy workshop in the refugee camp in Palestine and culminates in a show with two refugees aspiring to be comics

markthomasinfo.co.uk/events/showtime-from-the-frontline/

I bet very few of the people squealing about anti-semitism have even heard of these, let alone watched them. But heigh ho, those cakes won't rise if they aren't watched, eh ?

With the discovery that the tories are planning on implementing a USA style health system - can I just add, that my husband and I were discussing the NHS and how it needs reform (in our opinion) but his comment (and he has voted Tory in the past) was that you certainly don't want the tories and in particular the current ones in control of it..... that the sort of reform they want will be bad for most people in the country.

What is it in the uk at the moment- we'll in the Tory party, that there is this blind idolisation of the USA

And when you rightly raise these concerns to you link it to a particular religion when ascribing blame?

Nope. I link it to the actions of a particular national government and I absolutely condemn its behaviour. I couldn’t give a flying fuck what religion they are, because that’s not how I think.

@thecatfromjapan thank you for your fabulous post at 10.00, it was wonderfully eloquent.

Yy Quuen

DGR if you change the 't' in 'to' to a 'd' for 'do' it is a sensible question, looks like a simple typo to me.

Sadly that's disingenuous, @Motheroffourdragons . I'm anti Trump not anti America. I'm anti Johnson not anti UK.
Criticising Israeli foreign policy (which Israelis do btw) is generally "antiIsrael" not "anti Netenyahu". Doesn't take too long until we get to "Israel shouldn't exist" - which is antizionism.

It should be possible - without being accused of anti-semitism - to:

. criticise the large number of murders by Israeli soldiers of Palestinian civilians

. criticise the judicially approved torture for information of some prisoners

. advocate that Israel return to its pre-1967 borders

. advocate that Israeli settlements should be removed and the land returned, with compensation, to the rightful owners

. state that Israeli govts have been driven by the religious hard right for many years

. even to discuss a one-state solution - although it is very naive kumbaya territory to think this could ever work, or that Israelis would be safe
The discussion really would be the "free speech" that BJ claims for his racist "jokes"

However, in practice any or all of the above may bring automatic claims of anti-semitism, even when the statements themselves are not cited as such

• some activists will start hunting for any statement or action that can be used to make such a claim against those they regard as enemies of Israel. They deliberately conflate anti-semitism with this, because it is much easier than defending Israeli govt actions

Bellini have you read the article linked above? www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/11/27/election-2019-the-ethics-of-voting-for-the-lesser-evil

It's incredibly relevant to the discussions we've been having here about the compromises we make when voting. How would you feel about Labour voters who are holding their noses about anti semitism doing as suggested in the article and attempting to make amends?

Similarly, there are things that RLVs could do, after or alongside their vote, to attempt to make amends to Jewish people. They could acknowledge that relevant moral rights have not been honoured and apologise. More importantly, they could make strenuous additional efforts, beyond those that we should all make anyway, to fight anti-semitism, within Labour and beyond.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my sense is that if it were me in your shoes, it would feel like platitudes, that it wouldn't address the underlying issues that are caused by the party leadership.

I'm struggling with what can I do, practically? I've chosen to join Labour to vote for the new deputy, and leader if Corbyn goes. What else can I do, apart from speaking out? I'm not asking you, bellini, or Jewish people generally, to come up with solutions, this is not your fault and not your problem to fix, but I want to listen, to understand, and to learn. Because there is no one else, it's always down to us as individuals.

The problem stems from the fact that it is very difficult to separate the State of Israel from the Jewish religion

No it isn't.

Pakistan is very much the muslim Israel, created out of British rule by a partition that unsucessfully attempted to avoid bloodshed between three religious communities. Pakistan is an explictly muslim nation that references the Sharia as the source of all law, including its notorious blasphemy laws.

But would anyone except a few racist nutters blame British muslims for Pakistan's corruption and excesses?

See also one million muslims locked up in Chinese concentration camps. People rightly criticise the Chinese govt for this, but no one suggests that there should not be a China, or that it should not rule Xinjan.

Well, if any of the things listed by BCF are antisemitic then yes, I am antisemitic. But they are not and I am not. Atrocities against Palestinians have been committed by Israeli governments of different colours. Saying that does not equate to denying Israel's right to exist.

The problem stems from the fact that it is very difficult to separate the State of Israel from the Jewish religion, so it is very easy to assume that an attack on the state is an attack on Jewish people.

Only if you're a little thick, I think.

And were anyone to ascribe the UKs actions (excluding Scotland, after I had my arse handed to me yesterday) to Christianity, most people would go "You what ?"

Of course if the state of Israel insists on promoting it's government as a religious one, then it will invite comments based on religion as much as politics. But, to echo Eleanor Roosevelt, I really don't think that much about Israel at all, anyway ....

DGR if you change the 't' in 'to' to a 'd' for 'do' it is a sensible question, looks like a simple typo to me.

Ah, thanks

Americans and British people are not members of a single religion, whereas Jewish people are, so that's not the same thing at all.

Are all Israelis Jewish ?

Well, if any of the things listed by BCF are antisemitic then yes, I am antisemitic. But they are not and I am not. Atrocities against Palestinians have been committed by Israeli governments of different colours. Saying that does not equate to denying Israel's right to exist.

Totally agree with pointythings here.