Potential Scottish independence - how do people think it would happen in practice?

[Miaowing]

I've asked on other threads how people who support Scottish independence actually see it going.

If Brexit has taught us anything, its how difficult it is to unpick 40 years of integration. We are talking hundreds of years in the case of independence.

Are people assuming that the rest of the Uk will just roll over and make it easy for them the same way the more naïve Brexiteers thought that Europe would?

Think of all the things taken for granted.

Sometimes I think independence supporters think Scotland can just pick up its ball and not play anymore and expect ROUK to say go on, and here you go, we’ll help you out.

There is obviously trade and customs but to be honest they are the easy parts.

Well what we are talking about here is cecession, Scotland leaving the UK and the UK carrying on without it as the UK and, emphatically, not as "The Rest of the UK." If and when Scotland became independent, what is now the rest of the UK would thenceforward be "The UK."

By default and in the absence of any agreement, the UK would retain all of the assets and all of the liabilities, except for the land and territorial waters of Scotland. What constitutes the land and territorial waters of Scotland would be largely a matter for the UK to determine. If the UK wishes to keep uninhaboted territory such as Rockall or the far north tip of Shetland, it would have an absolute right to do so.

Regards the waters, the matter of the border would be subject to arbitration. The current maritime border is an internal domestic UK arrangement. With much of the Forties oil field falling on the "English" side of the border depending on how you draw it, this dispute has potential to be prolonged.

A big problem for a cecessionist Scotland will be its ability to borrow on the world markets. With no credit history, it has no credit rating. (Unless you want to go back to Darien?)

As a new member of the EU, there would be costs, unless the entire EU agreed unanimously to waive those costs in Scotland's case alone, as the SNP appear to think will happen. Good luck with that.

In short, the practical reality differs markedly from the romantic nationalist aspiration.

It's pretty obvious that Brexit makes Scottish independence more politically viable but more practically complicated. A hard border between Scotland and England would be highly problematic.

I suppose, unlike Brexit, the thing in Scotland's favour in terms of practicalities is that there is no Article 50 tying its leaving to an unworkable timescale. That's not to say that the WM government wouldn't impose an unworkable deadline upon it though.

Why would the UK be able to lay claim to the northern tip of Shetland? (genuine question)

...Because that's where the Saxa Vord radar station is located, and we don't lay claim to it, it's ours, and stays ours if we say so. No one lives there so it is unaffected by any referendum mandate.

Wouldn't surprise me if there was an expectation that the land the radar station is on returned to Scotland but we had to pay rent for it and then operate it and use it to their benefit as well.

I'm genuinely confused: it's on Unst which is very much inhabited. (I was asking because I have Shetland family and hadn't heard this!)

Miaowing the land is in Scotland, that is just a fact!

There would be many forces facilities within Scotland where negotiations would have to take place. What's different about this one? (again, a genuine question)

I didnt raise this one!

Its just an example of the 1000s of issues that would need to be resolved which most independence supports never mention or assume will be easy.

But you talked about the land being "returned to Scotland" - I'm lost, it's in Scotland and afaik hasn't been sold to...England+Wales+NI?

It's weird how people perceive Scotland. It's a country that's part of the UK. It isn't owned in small pieces by any other countries.

It would be an absolute shambles.
Only have to read on the BBC website today how Snp choice of taxation powers has left Scotland worse off and also its tax payers.
I can not see how independence would work out without jeopardising Scotland’s people dramatically.

People live on Unst, but not that far North. You could draw the line at the last/first house and the UK would keep everything north of that as a Sovereign Base on the Cyprus model.

The point is "Scotland" is such part of the UK as the UK says it is. Whatever the UK agrees to grant independence to can call itself Scotland if it wishes, or anything else.

You are absolutely wrong.

1. People live there, it's their home
2. A country is a country. There is no relationship with the rest of the UK where England+Wales+NI get to define what is Scottish land and what isn't.

And the inverted commas are particularly twattish.

People live there

....Where?

You are absolutely wrong.

There used to be a lighthouse-keeper at Mukkle Flugga, but the light is now automatic. There is nothing north of the radar station and nothing south for a good few miles.

You can see it on Google Maps, and show me the invisible houses.

1. Currently, Scotland is not a country. It is a minority nation within the UK, which is a country. England, Wales and NI are irrelevant. The UK, all of it, is one nation. It is the United Kingdom, not the United Kingdoms. t is sovereign, and if it cedes territory, as it did in 1922, it can keep as much as it chooses, including Mundellshire if the people there express a wish to remain in the UK.

UK Sovereign Bases on Cyprus:

Wow.

People live near, north of and particularly east of Saxa Vord, which btw has a fucking holiday village

Not many people I grant you, but do them the respect of not erasing them from the map just so it fits some batshit narrative you have about Scotland being forced to sell off bits of itself in the wildly unlikely event that independence happens.

The village is south of the radar station. There are no houses anywhere near the radar station, that is why it is where it is, north of any human habitation.

(Of course a treaty agreeing continued unhindered operation would be the sensible option, for Saxa Vord, Benbecula and the big one, RNB Clyde, but in the event of no agreement, the Cyprus option is Plan B.)

It would be secession not independence. We are in a Union with Scotland. Flawed and unequal in many respects but it is a union which either party can leave. Scotland is not a conquered nation like Wales or Ireland.
Maybe England should grow the fuck up and realise it has never taken over Scotland. If the people of Scotland decide the union is no longer in their interests, they should secede from the Union. And they may or may not decide to in what must be the inevitable referendum.

‘Scotland’ ??? Scotland exists and is a country, that is a matter of fact not opinion.

Scotland exists as a constituent part of the UK, a unitary state, not a federation or confederation. The word union derives from Unos,' meaning One.^

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are each whatever the UK says they are. The example of the Maelor which was Cheshire, then Flintshire, wanted to join Shropshire but was put into Clywd, is an example of the absolute power of the UK to allocate territory to its constituent parts as it sees fit.

Mockers your example is not applicable to Scotland which is a separate country, currently part of the UK through choice.

Only have to read on the BBC website today how Snp choice of taxation powers has left Scotland worse off and also its tax payers.
I can not see how independence would work out without jeopardising Scotland’s people dramatically

Interesting, I’ll need to have a look at what the BBC are saying. A huge problem is HM revenue underestimated tax revenue and it turns out that the Scot gov couldn’t take over vat because the system so far has been based in estimations.

Sending lots of money down south complicates matters. Presumably when all tax collected stays here, then it will be less complicated than dealing with the current cloak and dagger, estimations done at Whitehall.

Sending lots of money down south complicates matters. Presumably when all tax collected stays here, then it will be less complicated than dealing with the current cloak and dagger, estimations done at Whitehall.

What about the potential loss of jobs - i.e. public sector employment such as the huge tax offices in Scotland which could be closed down if Scotland becomes independent and the UK HMRC decides to open new offices in England & Wales instead? That will make a big dent in Scottish employment and tax revenue. I can't imagine it will be politically viable for one country to administer/process governmental matters like taxes in a different country.