Potential Scottish independence - how do people think it would happen in practice?

[Miaowing]

I've asked on other threads how people who support Scottish independence actually see it going.

If Brexit has taught us anything, its how difficult it is to unpick 40 years of integration. We are talking hundreds of years in the case of independence.

Are people assuming that the rest of the Uk will just roll over and make it easy for them the same way the more naïve Brexiteers thought that Europe would?

Think of all the things taken for granted.

Sometimes I think independence supporters think Scotland can just pick up its ball and not play anymore and expect ROUK to say go on, and here you go, we’ll help you out.

There is obviously trade and customs but to be honest they are the easy parts.

Calyx, you seem to think that trade is equal between Scotland and England, and that England would suffer equally from a trace barrier with Scotland.
This is nonsense.
England is Scotland's biggest customer by miles (60% of total trade). Scotland is only a tiny insignificant customer of England's. A trade barrier would only hurt Scotland - it would be barely noticed by England.
Another example of how ill thought out the whole independence crap really is.

Fascinating thread.

My memory from a long ago Scottish history course at uni (Edinburgh FWIW) is sling the lines of one of the OPs post: that since 1707 “Scotland” and “England” etc ceased to exist as nations, countries whatever, and there is only the Union. Scotland mostly exists as an idea, a feeling. Yes there is an area of land that is administered by the Scottish Parliament, but this does not represent a “country” or “nation”, it’s just an administrative boundary / area.

The rUK may not want to "let" Scotland become independent but it won't have a choice if Scotland votes in favour.

What does “won’t have a choice” mean?

Babdoc. Eh? I did not say or think anything about 'equal' trade. Just that putting barriers to free trade with Scotland will cost them.

I think that independence for Scotland is going to be less damaging than being tied to this rUK. This Tory government (along with Labour and the Tory Lib Dems) are not making decisions with Scotland's best interest in mind. After independence whatever government Scots vote will be a government working only for Scotland.

Anything else - negotiations about settlement and currency and trade or anything- will be carried out by a government working in our best interest.

Euro and hard border? We could deal with that as others do. Better than Brexit Britain governed by right wing incompetents and with a media who are in full propaganda mode.

Self governance is normal and Scotland will do better than the naysayers think.

'Won't have a choice' because Scotland will take it to the courts / have an advisory referendum and if a significant majority vote to become an independent country then the union will be over. I don't believe that Scotland is 'only a feeling'. England and Wales won't think they are 'only a feeling'.

Wally what would have happened if Scotland voted yes in 2014?

@Calyx72
I have no idea what would have happened. Presumably a lot of lawyers would have been rubbing their hands at the prospect of going to court to decide what “Scotland”is legally, where the boundaries lie, and who has the power to décide.

I don't believe that Scotland is 'only a feeling'. England and Wales won't think they are 'only a feeling'.

What anyone feels is irrelevant if the nations of Scotland /England / Wales do not exists in legal terms. You can’t argue in court for a feeling. Feelings can win referendums - then the harsh reality of the actual legal situation bites and it turns into a big shitstorm: sound familiar? ;-)

I understand what you're saying but I believe Scotland was an independent country before the union and can return to being an independent country afterwards.

The legal wrangle won't be any worse than Brexit and Scotland will be working for itself.

As someone above said - we now have nothing to lose. There's no status quo like there was in 2014.

The ‘feeling only’ Scotland has a very separate legal system, a separate education system, a devolved government and a very different culture. Scotland actually exists.

I think it's totally bonkers to grind on about Scottish independence until the Brexit fiasco is completed, one way or the other. Then things need to settle down, trade deals arranged, an agreement with the EU made etc etc. Only then when you can work out details of what SI actually means in terms of finances etc should a referendum be done

Healseedbroth, for the record, I am not a fundamentalist and never have been. I am a mainstream Christian in the Church of Scotland. My female church minister has been active in committees at national level to campaign for gay rights, supported by me and her congregation.
You seem to have a childish wish to cast me as some kind of villain.
Sorry to disoblige, but I am a moderate Conservative, a supporter of the United Kingdom, and a believer in democracy - which is why, even as a Remainer myself, I respect the result of both the Brexit and Independence referenda. Unlike Sturgeon and the SNP, who are trying to overthrow both.

It's a shame really that it isn't possible to predict how things would or could be (hypothetically-speaking) because either people are very angry (on both sides) or they just lie, present supposition as fact etc.

I mean you know that say the whisky industry or the financial services industry or any company of a notable size will have done a risk assessment but getting honest and factual breakdown of what it means for them is impossible. Last time people just said whatever fit their own narrative and missed things out and made huge leaps of logic/faith here and there. It was infuriating. I absolutely include the SNP in that.

I think it's totally bonkers to grind on about Scottish independence until the Brexit fiasco is completed

It's not, Scotland is a major exporter, brexit will destroy or decimate many of our industries almost immediately. If we can leave Uk and rejoin EU or come to some agreement with EU over the brexit transition period they could be saved.

If the UK gov cared about this they would have included Scotland in the same deal N Ireland will have. But, they'd need to put a customs border between Scotland and England. Doing this would make people realise that if that can be done then why not go independent.

UK government can't afford to let Scotland go. Revenue created by Scotland is massively underestimated. The more tax powers we get and the more you look at GERS figured, they don't add up. do you think if we were a drain they would keep us?

If the UK gov cared about this they would have included Scotland in the same deal N Ireland will have

If the Uk gov cared about anyone but themselves they would have included the whole of the UK in the same deal NI has.

Maybe, but the people of England and Wales voted for Brexit. If that's what they want, then they should get it. Unless there's another referendum that says otherwise of course.

^Scotland is a major exporter, brexit will destroy or decimate many of our industries almost immediately. If we can leave Uk and rejoin EU or come to some agreement with EU over the brexit transition period they could be saved.

If the UK gov cared about this they would have included Scotland in the same deal N Ireland will have. But, they'd need to put a customs border between Scotland and England. Doing this would make people realise that if that can be done then why not go independent.

UK government can't afford to let Scotland go. Revenue created by Scotland is massively underestimated. The more tax powers we get and the more you look at GERS figured, they don't add up. do you think if we were a drain they would keep us?^*

• Amortentia*^

^ THIS a million times. Exactly this. We can't afford to wait and Brexit is unlikely to be settled or sorted in the foreseeable future.

Since 1707 “Scotland” and “England” etc ceased to exist as nations, countries whatever, and there is only the Union.

Not quite. Scotland is a nation, but in 1707 both Scotland and England-&-Wales and became the United Kingdom of Great Britain. That UK then formed another union in 1801 with the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which in 1921 became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are all nations. In the USA they have fifty states in one nation. In the UK we have four nations* in one state, and Ireland is one nation in two states.

(*Northern Ireland is only part of a nation, and certainly not a country but a province, the UK province of NI, not to be confused with the Irish province of Ulster, which it mostly is, but not entirely.)

In a federation, such as Germany, Australia or the USA, the constituent states are sovereign, and together form the federal authority, which only has such powers as the states grant it. In a unitary state such a the UK, France or Spain, the central government holds sovereignty and grants certain powers to the constituent parts, be they provinces, nations, states or regions etc.

It is sometimes said that the Scottish people are sovereign, and this is true, but only in so far as they are free to elect their representatives, and the Scottish People are only ever the people who happen to be living in Scotland at the time with a UK passport entitlement. JK Rowling is thus Scottish, but, constitutionally speaking, Andy Murray is English.

In sum, the only rights Scotland has, or can ever have, are those rights granted to it by the UK.

What Amortentia said, with bells on.

The aftermath of Brexit will also be dire for Scottish agriculture, which benefits from a very positive image abroad and is known for excellent quality, high welfare, etc. With the inevitable lowering of food standards that Brexit entails, those industries will be very hard hit. That's why NS's initial strategy of waiting for Brexit to happen so that its catastrophic results are apparent to all isn't necessarily a good one.

,"Scottish People are only ever the people who happen to be living in Scotland at the time with a UK passport entitlement. JK Rowling is thus Scottish, but, constitutionally speaking, Andy Murray is English."

What a load of pish

It's a load of legal reality pish. JK had a vote in the referendum and Andy didn't.

Doesnt mean to say that your are not Scottish as soon as you leave Scotland. Like I said pish.

It depends what you mean by Scottish. Legally there is no such thing as Scottish nationality, only Scottish residency.

doesnt mean to say that your are not Scottish as soon as you leave Scotland.

Tricky. I call myself Scottish, I was born there, lived there till the age of 35, my parents and all the rest of my family still live there. I left 15 years ago (NZ then France). I still feel Scottish. I went to school and uni there. My husband is Scottish. Both my kids say they are Scottish, even though neither were born there. I go out boozing with other Scots and we, collectively, are very Scottish. If anyone asks me, I’m Scottish.

But I don’t have a single piece of paper to prove it. On paper / legally speaking, I’m British, whether I like it or not. And if I am Scottish despite having lived away for some years, why wasn’t I allowed to vote in the referendum? Sorry, wee personal moan there.