Potential Scottish independence - how do people think it would happen in practice?

[Miaowing]

I've asked on other threads how people who support Scottish independence actually see it going.

If Brexit has taught us anything, its how difficult it is to unpick 40 years of integration. We are talking hundreds of years in the case of independence.

Are people assuming that the rest of the Uk will just roll over and make it easy for them the same way the more naïve Brexiteers thought that Europe would?

Think of all the things taken for granted.

Sometimes I think independence supporters think Scotland can just pick up its ball and not play anymore and expect ROUK to say go on, and here you go, we’ll help you out.

There is obviously trade and customs but to be honest they are the easy parts.

It depends what you call a country. Scotland is a nation but not a state. It has been an integral part of the United Kingdom since 1707. The Treaty of Union of that year states "That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain."

Now you have to carry that forward to the 1801 Act of Union incorporating Ireland, and to the United Nations Charter, the Helsinki Accords and all subsequent treaties and accords.

Under International Law, Scotland (and England, for that matter) does not exist, save for being recognised by the EU as a region of the UK.

As with Ireland, it would be for the UK as one UK to decide what part of its territory it was prepared to grant independence to. What that independent territory chose to call itself would be a matter for it, but it would be a new state in the international system, recognised by the UN and other international bodies only on the advice of the UK whose borders cannot be changed except by agreement.

What about the potential loss of jobs - i.e. public sector employment such as the huge tax offices in Scotland which could be closed down if Scotland becomes independent and the UK HMRC decides to open new offices in England & Wales instead? That will make a big dent in Scottish employment and tax revenue. I can't imagine it will be politically viable for one country to administer/process governmental matters like taxes in a different country

They’ve already or are planning to close many of the HMRC offices in Scotland. Independence would create many jobs, and not just in the public sector. Scotland is a major exporter of goods that currently travel to Heathrow or English ports. There’s no reason that they shouldn't be transported directly.

There are lots of similar sized countries across Europe and they all manage perfectly well. Scotland is an assist rich country and we have the potential to do better when we’re not playing second fiddle to meet the needs of out neighbour.

I want to see a progressive, outlooking country that wants to protect the vulnerable and the environment, I don’t see this as being possible staying in the U.K. It wont be easy to start with but I’m sure we’ll get there in the end.

There are lots of similar sized countries across Europe and they all manage perfectly well. Scotland is an assist rich country and we have the potential to do better when we’re not playing second fiddle to meet the needs of out neighbour.

But most of those benefit from being in the EU. Not sure how Scotland will fare completely on it's own. Or do you want independence from the UK but join the EU instead? Is that even possible or likely?

Former President Barosso, a lecturer in constitutional law in his day job, made the position clear in 2014: Scotland would be welcome to join the EU as a new member, but it would need to get in the queue.

This could be overidden by all the member states unanimously voting to scrap this rule.

I worry about drawing parallels between Scotland and similarly-sized EU countries. They've tended to have relatively high taxation for decades now and have built up their welfare states and social institutions based on fairly decent amounts of funding. Scotland hasn't had that, and post-independence people aren't likely to accept levels of taxation similar to say Denmark or Finland.

Scotland hasn't had that, and post-independence people aren't likely to accept levels of taxation similar to say Denmark or Finland

Scotland is a more left-wing, social welfare-orientated country than England, so I think in general its people would accept more taxation. Maybe not on Scandinavian/Nordic levels but maybe more like Germany. And I am sure the EU would accept Scotland as a member, certainly in the long term. In the short term I can't imagine there would be difficulties joining EFTA and benefiting from the SM and CU.

the practical reality differs markedly from the romantic nationalist aspiration

Exactly.

We need a plan for how independence would be managed BEFORE we vote. Customs, borders, trade, currency, people who work in one country and live in another, the EU etc etc

This thread has taken a very weird turn

I'm Scottish and even I think parts of this thread are Uber niche

I think in general its people would accept more taxation

Agree. We already have the higher tax bracket kicking in earlier.

Tbh I think independence COULD be great, but I'm not voting for it without details.

We need a plan for how independence would be managed BEFORE we vote.

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!!!

If there is a lesson of Brexit, this is it.

Tbh I think independence COULD be great, but I'm not voting for it without details.

And how do you feel about Brexit without the details? 😂

See, havingtochangeusernameagain, I want to go along with what you say - I think we would (and do already) manage with slightly higher taxes but if you asked me to pay 45% income tax I would then struggle to buy groceries!

And I desperately want to believe that it would be a walk in the park to reapply to join the EU, but are we then going to take the financial penalties that come with adopting the euro (based on previous countries' experiences)? Because no way is the EU going to say 'come away in, och no just keep the pound', we will be in on the EU's terms and not with the deal we currently have as part of the UK (at least until that gets fucked up come the end of January or the twelfth of never, whichever way it goes).

And there's the argument that enough SNP MSPs/members are and always have been against the EU anyway.

Whatever happens we all in the UK have a hard road ahead for the next couple of generations anyway.

I worry about drawing parallels between Scotland and similarly-sized EU countries. They've tended to have relatively high taxation for decades now and have built up their welfare states and social institutions based on fairly decent amounts of funding. Scotland hasn't had that, and post-independence people aren't likely to accept levels of taxation similar to say Denmark or Finland.

I think this is preferable to what Brexit U.K. run by shady Tories will look like. It’s already a disaster if you are reliant on any kind of benefits. I don’t want to live in a country that models itself on Singapore.

The UK government probably actually own parts of Scotland like Faslane, Coulport Leuchars bases just like we have military outposts in various other places I do not think Faslane will become Scottish any more than Guantanamo bay will become Cuban although it is in Cuba

if we have learnt anything from Brexit we need to know what the deal with rUK is before we vote no-one surely believes it will be easy or simple!!!! and surely no-one believes the smaller party has the upper hand in negotiations

Amortentia I absolutely don't disagree with you there!

It was sad last time, I know people who voted no simply because they wanted to stay in the EU and felt it was more of a protection against the batshittery of Westminster...that went well.

And I desperately want to believe that it would be a walk in the park to reapply to join the EU, but are we then going to take the financial penalties that come with adopting the euro (based on previous countries' experiences)? Because no way is the EU going to say 'come away in, och no just keep the pound', we will be in on the EU's terms and not with the deal we currently have as part of the UK (at least until that gets fucked up come the end of January or the twelfth of never, whichever way it goes)

Joining the Euro is not compulsory, there are several recent member who have kept their own currency. Scotland is a major exporter compared to the rest of the U.K., it’s crucial we can trade with EU. Look at rep. Of Ireland, they mostly traded with U.K., now their main market is mainland Europe. We need to expand and need access to the larger EU market, Brexit will hit us very hard.

approximately a third of SNP voters are pro Brexit or at least anti EU
they want true independence not to swap control by Westminister for control by Brussels
anyone with even a tiny bit of Maths knowledge can see that 59 MP's among 650 at Westminister (9%) is more representation than 6 among 732 in Brussels (0.8%)

If the SNP are true to their principles, they will agree to let the UK keep RNB Clyde as a sovereign base. Trident will thus be no longer based in Scotland.

If they want to get really bolshie, the base could be serviced by a supply ship in the loch, as the US boats were for many year by the USS Canobus, known to the locals as the USS Cannabis because of its fragrant signature.

We only have 6 because were part of U.K. reb. Of Ireland have 11 at the moment and they are a smaller country.

Oh, and governance from Westminster is nothing like EU governance.

Agreeing to join the Euro is compulsory for all new EU members, but there is no time limit. Meanwhile, Scotland would need a viable currency of its own, with gold and other assets to back it up, before the EU let it in.

Scotland is a more left-wing, social welfare-orientated country than England, so I think in general its people would accept more taxation.

See, I don't know if I agree with this at all. Large swathes of Scotland can be very conservative (small c)

There’s no rush to join the Euro and I have no problem with using it, it’s a far more stable currency than the pound at the moment.

I’m not sure about the need for gold but I’m sure Westminster will be sure to return our share of U.K. assets when we leave. 🤣

Maybe the EU will be cool with us as we have the largest oil fields in Western Europe, apparently the oil isn’t running out. 🤔

Compared to the UKIP/Brexit party and hard right Tories currently still more popular than Labour across England, Scotland looks like a socialist utopia. 😂

No share of the UK's gold. Gordon Brown sold all the Scottish ingots.

And sssssh about how wealthy you are or the EU will be wanting more dosh to subsidise all those Romanian dirt farmers.

(winkywotsit)

Because no way is the EU going to say 'come away in, och no just keep the pound

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But that assumes the UK allow you to use the pound. Very big assumption