Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

I might be generalising a bit here.

Its how they come across at least, whether its an accurate reflection or not

I'll take that Tatiana

Dunno Just.

My solution was dump Corbyn and replace him with someone with broader appeal.

Because they are not winning elections Frank.

Yup.

I’m equally entitled to question your view of the motives of a journalist

Sure. But I'll stick to my principles, which require the same standards from all sides. Smearing people because they share a relatively common ethically-identifying name with someone else, and without bothering to check your facts first, is the sort of journalistic practice I'd associate with far-right fake news websites.

But is he voting, and who for ?

LibDem he said.

I've always though (and it was oddly a plus point) that Labour had their squabbles in public, whilst the Tories were very good at hiding them.

It's no stretch to say that Brexit is a result of that mendaciousness. How many people in 2015 would have voted Tory, if they knew it was a vote to leave the EU ? But no ... they were told that it was "Labour chaos" versus "Tory stability" ....

It's unlikely we'll get a second chance, so we can just pick over the failure of the only one we had, but I'm still saying that the best thing to have done was to look for ways to mitigate climate change (which is going to happen anyway) rather than have a 40 or so year bunfight of unequal parties about what the cause is and how to stop/slow it

This isn't really the thread for it, but the scale is too huge for mitigation to be possible - how do you mitigate the displacement of tens of million people from low lying areas (potentially15 million in Bangladesh alone)? The idea that mitigation is cheaper than drastically reducing emissions is very questionable. We'll probably need to do both anyway.

And there will still be people thinking that in 2019 DGR.

This isn't really the thread for it, but the scale is too huge for mitigation to be possible

Whereas stopping - let alone reversing - the trend is ?

The idea that mitigation is cheaper than drastically reducing emissions is very questionable.

I wasn't suggesting it was "cheaper". But you can reduce you emissions to a negative number if you like, and still be fucked when (as noted previously) that big volcano decides to blow. So mitigating is a catch-all approach ...

This isn't really the thread for it

Yes ... and no . We strayed into this backwater from a dust up over the use of language when delineating issues in the public consciousness. It's a fascinating example of the use of language to control and direct debate, opinion, and ultimately action.

I did like the phrase "climate fraudster" upthread. But even then, I guess we've have a scrap over that. My idea of a climate fraudster is anyone who pretends a few windmills and solar panels are in any way anything to do with dealing with climate change.

But I'll stick to my principles, which require the same standards from all sides.

And I’ll stick to mine which is that I wouldn’t label a journalist racist for an error without good evidence that that was the case.

If Gary Younge mistook one Joe Bloggs for a racist Joe Bloggs I certainly wouldn’t be likening it to far right fake news.

Meanwhile, Clintons struggling again ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50365605

Greetings card chain Clintons is considering shop closures and rent cuts as part of a survival plan.

(contd)

when they say "rent cuts", do they mean they're going to threaten their landlords with closure unless they get a reduction ? Quite aside from how that would play out with their neighbouring shops that are (presumably) still paying full whack, I wonder what would happen if the Smith family from Shitstock went to their landlord and said "look mate, it's a bit tight; what with Christmas, can we reduce our rent by 10-% ?"

I wonder what size bonus the bosses are getting ? Although you really have to question what stellar expertise they are bringing to the table if they are facing a problem in the run-up to Christmas ?

Quick, wheres Sajid and his magic money wand ?

I think the point is that some life will go on if we do nothing. Not all life, maybe not even human life to the extent we have it now, but some life will continue. It's just a question of how much we want to fuck it all up.

Tatiana It was a pretty serious journalistic error which probably would not have occurred with a candidate with a common British name (if only because it would have been clearer to all concerned that it WAS a common name and that mistaken identity should be ruled out).

Freedland isn't an amateur, he's a respected journalist but this was Prison Planet quality journalism and if it ends in court I won't have any sympathy.

Tbh I have found the whole think very disappointing from start to finish - the apology was pretty mealy-mouthed too. This doesn't mean I subscribe to the idea that antisemitism in the Labour Party is a right wing conspiracy; it clearly isn't. But something can be both true and used for political purposes. Some of the accounts defending Freedland most stridently on twitter are pretty unsavoury, with a history of islamophobic and sometimes - in a perfect storm of irony - antisemitism on their own timelines: Soros conspiracy merchants leaping to the defence of a Jewish journalist who libelled a Muslim.

Grandly endorse an independent (seceded actually) Scotland and a United Ireland all you like. It just shows you don't realise it's a little more complicated than that. Rather patrician English to expect other countries to go through turmoil for England's convenience.

that big volcano decides to blow

I am very much afraid that you do not have the foggiest clue what you are talking about. But that fight is for another thread.

Grandly endorse an independent (seceded actually) Scotland and a United Ireland

I think that many people vastly underestimate the practical and economic difficulty of the former (Brexit should maybe have given people a clue about this?). Obviously up to the Scottish people to decide whether they want to pay that cost or not. I was once against Scottish independence now I'm agnostic.

A united Ireland OTOH is primarily a political rather than a practical or economic problem, at least once it has been semi-detached from the U.K. by Brexit and the frontstop.

As a young “boomer” (now 66) I was an environmental activist in the 70s and 80s (not very effective, but hey). (I refused to drive a car until the 90s when I found myself caring for elderly parents and had to.). IM(not terribly well qualified)O, we passed the point of being able to do anything significant about anthropogenic climate disruption about fifty years ago. I agree (mostly) with DGR that the best we can do is adapt and try to mitigate its worst effects.
It also pisses me off that younger activists often seem incapable of recognising that very many people have worked very hard over a long period of time to try to raise awareness and improve the environment.

Dr Louise Raw
@LouiseRawAuthor
Confused as to when Corbyn became an anti-semite.

-Was it in 1977 when he helped organise the defence of Wood Green from a Neo-Nazi anti-Jewish march?

•In 1990 when he signed a Commons' motion condemning the rise of antisemitism?

In 2000 when Corbyn condemned David Irving for Holocaust denial?

In 2002 when he personally helped clean a Finsbury Park synagogue after an anti-semitic attack?

In 2004 when he condemned the French Government for trying to ban the Jewish Kippa in schools?

In 2006 when Corbyn condemned Bryan Ferry for anti-semitic remarks?

Same year when he led condemnations of an Iranan magazine running a Holocaust cartoon competition?

2008 when he praised the Jewish heroes of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising?

In 2009 when Corbyn condemned anti-semitism on social media?

Same year when he praised the heroism of Britsh Jews in the Holocaust?

2010 when he called for Yemeni Jews to be given refugee status here in the UK?

Maybe 2010 when Corbyn praised a former Israeli PM for working for a genuine 2-state solution?

2011 when he condemned John Galliano for anti-semitism?

2012 when he condemned the auctioning of Nazi memorabilia?

And opposed anti-semitic attacks during Euro 2012 in Poland?

2013 when Corbyn was one of very few MPs who spoke against anti-semitic press attacks on Ralph Miliband?

2014 when he praised the Holocaust Memorial Trust?

2015 when he helped plan a counter-fascist demo to a proposed march targeting Jewish residents in Golders Green?

2016 when he shed tears at the Cable Street commemoration?

2016, visiting Terezin Concentration Camp?

2017-19 when he's introduced new measures to fight Labour Party anti-semitism?

Seems to me he's been too busy rightly supporting Jewish people to have time for anti-semitism

I dont think its conclusive as the trolls and rightwingers would have you believe that Corbyn himself is anti-semitic

Last sentence is mine and not the tweeters

He rides with anti semites. He lets them flourish in tbe Party. He doesn't do enough to stop them because.... I don't know, you tell me.

Grandly endorse an independent (seceded actually) Scotland and a United Ireland all you like

The Scottish were assured a vote to remain part of the UK would ensure EU membership. They were lied to. The SNP are treated with contempt by the Tories in Westminster.

I'm not suggesting independence will be plain sailing but if you want to respect the Brexit vote you will have to accept the likely breakup of the Uk as a consequence.

Was Ireland's indepennce from the UK easy? No. Would many Irish people (I am an Irish Citizen btw) turn back the clock on independence from Britain. Not a chance.

Maybe it was attending a memorial to terrorist murderers, and describing Hezbollah and Hamas as his 'friends.'

I am very much afraid that you do not have the foggiest clue what you are talking about. But that fight is for another thread.

shrug your choice ...

scied.ucar.edu/shortcontent/how-volcanoes-influence-climate

TL;DR - volcanoes affect climate. Not the only thing, granted. But certainly on a scale to dwarf piddling around with man made emissions.

www.cru.uea.ac.uk/documents/421974/1295957/Info+sheet+%2313.pdf/8f7e9115-8a35-4ec2-b45d-f3ba36524a44

I may not be 100% on the science, but I resent and refute the accusation I am at 0% too

Thanks for your post justanother. The truth is out there, you just need the objectivity and critical thinking to find it.

I think that many people vastly underestimate the practical and economic difficulty of the former (Brexit should maybe have given people a clue about this?). Obviously up to the Scottish people to decide whether they want to pay that cost or not. I was once against Scottish independence now I'm agnostic.

Apropos of that, given yesterday, West Germany managed to swallow East Germany whole during the 90s and 2000s - something the UK could never have done at any time since 1945.