Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

So all that Labour has to offer is Corbyn or "a Blairite"? No middle ground?

How many elections did Blair win? How many have Labour won since?

It becomes a problem though when Unite etc vote for a leader who can't appeal to a broad electorate.

Corbyn had a lot of appeal in 2017, bringing the party back from a huge deficit and having picked up a huge amount of new members along the way.

As well as having broad appeal you also need someone tough enough to withstand the shitstorm that will be unleashed on them by the media. Corbyn has proved amazingly resilient to that.

Because they are not winning elections Frank.

Is Corbyn going to save Labour. I live in a Leave Labour area. It was a really safe seat. It isn't now.

Whats your solution endorse leave and take the hit when these voters want to know why they lost their jobs or simply vote Lib Dem, when at this point they (leavers) still think Brexit is a good idea?

But what counts as "a lot of appeal" Arse?

Plenty of people who support Corbyn, after the last election, where Labour did better than expected, were saying "look how well he did! Now we've just got to push a bit more!" As if the seats that Labour won in 2017 were theirs for the keeping at the next general election. That just a few more people needed to be persuaded in a few more seats. News Alert:- On election night 2019 all the MP's seats will be up for grabs again.

My solution was dump Corbyn and replace him with someone with broader appeal.

So all that Labour has to offer is Corbyn or "a Blairite"? No middle ground?

Given that public services need rebuilding after years of idelogical vandalism I say now is not the time for more free market/privitisation meddling.

Because they are not winning elections Frank.

Which is abit more complicated than just Corbyn unless he is also to blame for 1992 and 2010. Take a look at the media, social media influencing and just how informed (or not) the electorate is.

And I'm someone who's likely to vote Labour this December and persuading friends and family to do so.

(Maybe people on here will go down the Swinson route and tell me our votes aren't welcome? )

My solution was dump Corbyn and replace him with someone with broader appeal.

Could Savile Row spare a mannequin?

Of course the MSM is biased Frank. But what can be done to work round it? I don't know. I fear Labour being sidelined for generations. If ever recovering. Especially with the way Scotland is going.

But I can't pretend Corbyn is the answer. It should be largely down to policies. But that's not the reality. But if Labour and their supporters don't realise that, Labour won't win a majority.

The bottom line - from a scientific perspective - is that life on earth will do just fine whatever.

Debatable. Have you not heard of mass extinctions?
The problem is that the terminology is wrong - climate change is a continual process; global warming, exacerbated by human activity is what we should be talking about in a human rather than a geological time scale.

Could Savile Row spare a mannequin?

This reply just underlines my point.

Especially with the way Scotland is going.

This is an inevitable consequence of Brexit. I've said previously I would endorse an independent Scotland and united Ireland. A brexit England is a scary prospect but you reap what you sow. As for December I live in hope rather than expectation. I think Britain's political course over the last 40 years has been in the wrong direction, it might take more savvy younger generation to change the tide. If it isn't too late by then.

I'd be happy if no party won a majority again, and we might then get a proper electoral reform where people vote because they feel represented.

We could ally this with a remodelling of the HoC- given that they have to move out for refurbishment, it seems even more stupid not to take the opportunity to remodel it properly and bring it up to date with enough seats, and proper facilities.

News Alert:- On election night 2019 all the MP's seats will be up for grabs again.

Of course - and that applies to Tories as much as Labour!

What does 'broad appeal mean really?' These are extreme times. For years people complained the two parties were so similar that voters weren't being offered a proper choice. They certainly have that this time

Debatable. Have you not heard of mass extinctions?

And yet, we are here. Despite 99% of all species that ever lived not being here (no idea how we know, but most scientists like that figure).

It's impossible to prove, with a sample size of one, but I'm happy to accept that wherever there is liquid water, there will be life - eventually.

I agree Frank. I've said before that you and Just are not my enemies.

Yes but Arse can nothing be done to take us away from the extremes? If not this time soon?

Where's cat when you need a bit of optimism?

I am entitled to take a view on the motives of a journalist who libels another public figure because of a failure to do normal journalistic due diligence.

Sorry I had to go out. Anyone is entitled to any view on the internet. I’m equally entitled to question your view of the motives of a journalist, mainly, and this is to your credit, because it seemed uncharacteristically opportunist and insincere from someone I regard as an intelligent and level-headed poster.

Btw no one on here is my enemy actually.

Where's cat when you need a bit of optimism?

I have some good news. Just had a staunch Tory neighbour drop in for a drink, he’s 70+ Remainer, told me Boris is liar and a cad and he will not be voting Tory nor he will be campaigning for them. (Has in the past).

So that’s one down, a few million to go.

The problem is that the terminology is wrong - climate change is a continual process

The problem is/was, that almost by definition the climate changes all the time. We've had ice ages and tropical forests over the aeons. Even 10,000 or so years ago, Britain was under a mile of ice. So obviously the climate changes.

global warming, exacerbated by human activity is what we should be talking about in a human rather than a geological time scale.

The problem with the phrase "global warming" (and I would humbly suggest that part of the problem was letting that phrase escape into the wild in the first place) is that it allows people who don't have the time, effort, critical faculties or motivation; to just laugh at the first snowfall and say "so much for global warming then ...".

It's unlikely we'll get a second chance, so we can just pick over the failure of the only one we had, but I'm still saying that the best thing to have done was to look for ways to mitigate climate change (which is going to happen anyway) rather than have a 40 or so year bunfight of unequal parties about what the cause is and how to stop/slow it

And in a collision of politics and planet, the real solution is to find a way of not regarding "economic growth" as a good thing. Because all it really means is "squeezing more out of the planet". No matter how you dress it up.

I've said before that you and Just are not my enemies.

Never ever considered you as one tobee

I know Im a bit 'robust' some would say abusive (no intention of being the latter but I do get a bit passionate ) when I disagree but I always value peoples opinions, but the constant Corbyn wahh wahhh Corbyn scary boogieman that some pp's have irritates the fuck out of me

I know pp's dont like him but here we are anyway, like everyone else they had a chance to join Labour to have voted against him and I encourage you all to do so, but this bullshit that gets spouted of 'if only we had a more moderate leader' and then sometimes followed by if only the other brother was chosen as if theyd have got better treatment by the MSM unless they sold their soul to Murdock like Blair did. What evidence do you have that they would get a better deal by the MSM

I was just thinking, this isn't a novel thought , but traditionally the Labour Party are a factional party, arguing vociferously amongst themselves.

Whereas Tories are "how nice to see you, squire, can I get you a libation? Will your good lady wife be coming to the Christmas dinner dance?" While quietly pulling out all the stops to get elected. And keep everyone, and their money, in the right places.

I might be generalising a bit here.

I have some good news. Just had a staunch Tory neighbour drop in for a drink, he’s 70+ Remainer, told me Boris is liar and a cad and he will not be voting Tory nor he will be campaigning for them. (Has in the past).

But is he voting, and who for ?

Hasn't the previously held wisdom been that disgruntled Tories just stay at home, while disgruntled Labour voters vote Tory ?

The lower the turnout, the more small nudges can magnify and affect a result. A lot of Thatchers success was predicated on a horror of Foot and then Kinnock, rather than a ringing endorsement of Toryism. By- and local elections being the clue.