Brexits Arms - To GE or Not to GE that is the question?

[time4chocolate]

Will the man from del monte say yes on Monday or will he leave a lot us doing this.....again

How can LibDems/SNP vote against a Conservative GE but then ask everyone to vote for a different GE? WTF is the difference, a GE is a GE!

You aren't getting MN, are you?

The six of you need a thing called 'WhatsApp' which is readily available, free of charge, for you all to echo off each other for free. Free from adult intervention! Imagine! Mum need never know! 😉

You're 80 posts in, now, with around six posters.

Even the most 'robust' among you must be feeling a bit embarrassed.

You're 80 posts in, now, with around six posters.
But many more people like me are lurking and agreeing with nearly everything Dusty writes.

Problem with a December election is postal votes getting lost or delayed due to the Christmas post and quick elections usually mean overseas voters are not given the opportunity to vote which is totally wrong.
Parker, I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't the whole raison d'etre behind demanding an election at that specific time. It's also the period when a lot of students will finish their term and start heading home. They are probably not aware that they can legally register both in their university town and their home town - although they only have one vote, of course. A lot of universities encourage students to register to vote during freshers' week, so students may well have not registered at home. The government will know this.

Reading this morning that in the latest opinion poll, Cons have hit 40%!!!
Excellent news - now bring on the GE.
Brexit - better late than never

Even the most 'robust' among you must be feeling a bit embarrassed.
What's embarrassing is having to read blatant childish attempts to start a fight, such as this.

My biggest problem with a GE , is who the chuff to vote for , I can't vote Conservative , because they have lost the plot , they are no longer conservative. Labour , well quite apart from the fact that it would be pointless here, I feel they have decided to hate their middle ground supporters and I struggle with either extreme end of the political spectrum. So that leaves the Libdems or Greens. If you are centrist, even swinging a bit left or right , those are your two options as I see it and I am not sure Jo has built enough political rapport with the voters yet ?
I tell you what does make me chuckle , the fact that re-nationalisation of the railway(s) will actually occur under a Conservative government

The GE choices seem pretty clear to me:
For broadly Keynesian economic policies and Johnson's deal, vote Conservative.
For moderately Marxist economic policies and a 2nd Referendum, vote Labour
To revoke article 50 and remain, vote LibDem.
For an independent Scotland, vote SNP.

I wish I could say to protect the environment vote Green, but the Green Party has been hijacked by people obsessed with identity politics sadly.

“There are loads...
Obvs I can only speak for me smile”

You absolutely speak for me too, these are the same things I have written countless times before and gotten bored repeating, so I admire your tenacity writing them all out again! For that reason I will lazily hold onto your coattails today.

Oh, and I think someone further up thread just asked if we could hook up the glitterball? 🤔

My preference , other than revoke , which you all know is my most preferred option.
No GE or 2nd referendum yet.
Let Parliament go through the WA with a fine tooth comb.
Then have a 2nd referendum based on the WA or remaining,, so people get to choose between a clear Brexit proposal and all its implications or staying for now.
GE after that has all been sorted so parties have to campaign on the real issues facing the country.

I want MP’s to go through the agreement word by word, an ‘and’ or ‘or’ in the wrong place can make all the difference. I don’t care if it takes weeks to challenge any crap points Boris has tried to slip in.

It’s no good saying that MP’s will be accountable later if things like employment and environmental issues are excluded. Once the agreement is in legislation it’s incredibly difficult to change anything quickly particularly if whoever is the government next time has a decent majority. Do you really want American style employment conditions?

I don’t think Boris even knows and understands the key clauses, he’s been caught out already regarding the documentation required for goods going in and out of NI.

'we are one bad move away from the corbyn having access to the nuclear codes'

Article in mail on no 10. Boris sits Buddha like while his two camps of aides argue around him.

What a very sobering thought.

Imagine huge posters being rolled out, Abbott... A few quotes and her figures.. Want this person as home secretary?

Corybn with quotes and fingers reaching out to nuclear button..

Kier and all the quotes about respecting votes etc...

Have them all lined up...

Tories will walk it. Pop some classic junker in there too..

“Let Parliament go through the WA with a fine tooth comb.”

I 100% agree with you here in normal circumstances , but alas, these are challenging times, imo if Boris has to agree to take no deal off the table, (which by bringing a deal, he kind of has) then the MP’s scrutinising, have to be prepared to take churlish wrecking amendments and all the associated chicanery off the table too. They have voted for the deal in principle, so by that nature the house has already agreed to leave with that deal. Keep the amendments reasonable and disassociated from party politicking.

I don’t agree with 2nd ref for all of the reasons I have previously stated on other threads.

Nobody wins a UK election by slagging off the opposition. You need a positive message.

Personally I agree with going through anything with fine tooth comb, it's painful but what we should all do.

The problem is, I do not trust those in Parliament to go through it with a gone tooth comb to help us move forward with the eu and leave on good terms all round.

I see them going through it, to do nothing but rubbish it for the sake of it and cling onto anything in there to slaughter the tories for the sake of it and use everything as their on going tactic to over turn brexit.

So agaisnt that back drop I just want ge and let tory majority go through it properly.

I did drive near ish Westminster yesterday and do a 'get out of Parliament' shout from the cab in the general direction of it

Time4chocolate - transition ends December 2020 so we could no deal then. The government can choose to extend up to two years but they have to make the decision to do so by 1st July 2020. Why are you are so supportive of this WA when you seem to know so little about it?

Dusty if the government wanted to improve on workers rights they could have left them in the legally binding part of the withdrawal agreement as they are a minimum standard, so it is expected we will have better. The more hard right tories have literally told you that they want to dilute workers rights (see Britannia Unchained, Andrea Leadsom previously calling for minimum wage and maternity pay to be scrapped, JRM “good enough for India” comments, recent leaked document from Dexeu) I could go on but you still attribute dilution of workers rights as project fear

'we are one bad move away from the corbyn having access to the nuclear codes'

I’m actually more concerned about his wish to unilaterally scrap our nuclear deterrent than push the button to use them tbh. 😬

Let Parliament go through the WA with a fine tooth comb.
Then have a 2nd referendum based on the WA or remaining,,

If this was to happen (I really hope not)it's not only the WA that needs to be gone through with a fine tooth comb so all the 'negatives' can be highlighted to the electorate. The same fine tooth comb and 'negatives' needs to be applied to remaining. Leavers are constantly told they don't know what they're really going to be getting but that's so true for so many remain voters.

Yes, they 'know' the pros of remaining and that there will be 'terrible and unimaginable' consequences to leaving but for many that's it. They know only one side of the coin and not the other so even with a detailed explanation of the WA, how can they make a truly considered decision without the same truly honest explanation of what it will mean to remain?

It's not enough to offer a referendum on a detailed Brexit proposal or simply 'Remain'.

Dusty 00.25, agree with every word.

Epic, I took that quote to mean both.

1. him of all people having the power to push it which we know he wouldn't!
2. him scrapping them.

One of the reasons Boris probably didn’t want to allow sufficient debating time is that are things he knows won’t get through and he won’t end up with the deal he wants. I really hope a CU amendment gets through.

Ahhh, fair point @Sunnyuplands!

Greenish Yy absolutely.

I was with a group of teens this year and they had to discuss the eu and brexit. In group of about 25 only 2 students said they were leavers.

One was because her family was but the other, had done her own research, delved in deep and really knew her stuff.
When each student had to give very quick short reasons as to why they were remain they didn't know. Someone mentioned ehic cards.

After the educated leaver spoke, she passionately advocated for leave sighting all the negatives of the eu many students couldn't believe it?! They had no idea how many nuances and bigger issues are going on.

For balance, another group I was with was largely leave (teens) and the remainer in the that group was also an active remainer. Who knew their stuff.

Fair enough , the factual negatives of remaining can be detailed in the referendum as well Greenish See I am all about a bit of compromise if it means doing the job well

“When each student had to give very quick short reasons as to why they were remain they didn't know. Someone mentioned ehic cards.”

Understandable really, because they have grown up with it being the only way and during their formative political years have doubtless heard the same simplistic rhetoric about remain = good. Leave = bad, from the media and other persuasive sources. Also, they are likely to be terrified that their peers will paint them as bigots etc... if they deviate from the proscribed group think.

A form of ‘stockholm syndrome’ if you will.