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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
ListeningQuietly · 23/10/2019 15:38

Placemats
But nothing since the days of 3 channel TV and operator connection landlines

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 15:40

Cummings Govt source not exactly giving a neutral report on that mtg !

Paul Waugh@paulwaugh

Govt sources confirm

“PM met Corbyn this morning in his office in the HoC labour to discuss whether labour would back a timetable that allows us to actually get Brexit done rather than yet more delay.”

Tory source adds:
Corbyn made clear he has no policy except more delays and to spend 2020 having referendums.

So talks broke down pretty quickly then.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 15:40

placemats

all very interesting, but maybe less useful, for example:

At this point, the Reform Act 1832 abolished most rotten boroughs; suffrage was extended to propertied male adults, increasing the electorate from 366,000 to 650,000 (18% of males over 21, which is 9% of all adults over 21).[5]

and

At this point, the Reform Act 1867 significantly widened the suffrage increasing the numbers of voters from 1 million to 2 million men, and disenfranchised more smaller boroughs.[8]

make it pretty useless as a comparator, even if those elections encompassed universal suffrage (which the majority don't).

Add in the fact that for all of the 19th and first 20 years of the 20th century elections were between Tories and Whigs, and Tories and Liberals, and you've pretty much got yourself a cheap random number generator. That's before you factor in minor external incidents like World Wars one and Two and Suez, and even bigger incidents like "Who Shot JR ?".

Maybe I should have mentioned previously the dangers of relying too much on historic data ? Sorry if I didn't.

placemats · 23/10/2019 15:41

I meant to add that point Listening. You are right of course!

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 15:41

Corbyn made clear he has no policy except more delays and to spend 2020 having referendums.

Which is a policy ...

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 15:41

"Wasn't there a flurry of big donors pulling out as soon as it was clear they were going the full Brexit ?"

I read they had been replaced by hedge-funders & vulture capitalists who want a v hard Brexit

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 15:44

I read they had been replaced by hedge-funders & vulture capitalists who want a v hard Brexit

All transparent to the UK authorities, too, I presume ?

placemats · 23/10/2019 15:46

Exactly right DGR. No one knows the impact of a winter GE in the 21st century.

Interesting to note that voter turnout has declined since the start of the 21st century (when the internet and social media took off). It's struggling to reach the dizzy heights of the 50s.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 15:47

DG It's why I only posted / searched post-WW2 GEs
That is still no real comparison to the current situation, but any earlier is just too different to have any relevance

... unless we look at Germany in the 1920s & 1930s, as a warning to stay focused on the dangers.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 15:49

I read they had been replaced by hedge-funders & vulture capitalists who want a v hard Brexit

and in a display of proof that the internet has evolved sentience, whilst those that use it are losing theirs, this popped up elsewhere ....

QUOTE
Worth a watch as it highlights how ÂŁ500.000 has been laundered from Steve Bannon in America to Saudi Arabia to Northern Ireland Loyalists to the Scottish Tories then to England where the ÂŁ500.000 was donated to the Leave Campaign.
ENDQUOTE

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 15:51

Lewis Goodall@lewisgoodall

On this, v interesting piece which says that the public actually want a general election,
those who don’t are (generally) politicians and political journalists who think the public don’t either

LSE: A nation of Brendas? What the public really thinks of a general election – and why Westminster gets it wrong

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/what-the-public-really-thinks-of-an-early-election/

placemats · 23/10/2019 15:55

Lest we forget! Brenda was perhaps right to disagree, when told it was to bring about clarity!

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 15:58

Interesting to note that voter turnout has declined since the start of the 21st century (when the internet and social media took off). It's struggling to reach the dizzy heights of the 50s.

Couldn't agree more (it's the calmer DGR twin typing Grin). It's a tricky conundrum, as cracking why - or more pertinently working out an antidote - could bring victory (or defeat, which is probably why it's kept off limits ....).

The only thing anyone can reliably deduce from that, is that c. 30% of the electorate are effectively happy whatever the outcome.

There was a lot of media fuss about UKIP voters being engaged and voting for the first time previously. But I still think that's a flash in the pan and that many of those people are unlikely to vote again, for whatever reason.

True story ... last election - 2017 - as DW and I were going in, there was an older gentleman in front of us (I would be amazed if he was under 80). He asked the tellers what to do as "I've not done this before".

It's been bugging me ever since to want to know what it was in 60 odd years of life in Britain that made him decide "Today, I'm going to vote". Was he voting Tory ? Was he voting against ? Is it wrong of me to presume he did not vote in the referendum ? Did he not have a view on Suez ? The miners strike ? The Falklands ?

People are weird ....

MockersthefeMANist · 23/10/2019 16:00

Last December UK general election was 1923, cocky Tories lost to a Labour minority govt on the intervention of the monarch.

Last election late in the year was October 1974, Harold Wilson went from minority to a majority of three.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:00

the public actually want a general election

Yeah, well, the public want a lot of things depending when, where and who is asking them ...

Remember, 80% of voters wanted Brexit. 80%. Or so we were told ....

placemats · 23/10/2019 16:01

Lovely anecdote DGR

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:03

Last election late in the year was October 1974, Harold Wilson went from minority to a majority of three

In which case I got my elections wrong Grin Easily done.

I can't remember when - quite a while ago - but when a hung parliament was forecast but never materialised (1992 ?) it was noted by the proper political commentators (before their dog walkers got the gig) that the electorate tended to punish parties that went for an election rather than a coalition/C&S/minority government. I don't recall it being mentioned when we got the 2010 hung parliament though.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 16:04

and did the Loyalist / DUPes realise Brexit would create border with GB ?

You'd think they'd all be getting v angry with Bannon & the Tories right now

Those with 2 functioning brain cells to rub together
So, maybe not most of them

MockersthefeMANist · 23/10/2019 16:09

Tory funding was always going to be difficult after BJ said 'fuck business,' and business decided they would reciporocate.

A number of ever-so wealthy Russian exiles seem to have died at home in mysterious circumstances in recent years, so that's not helping. And following the Thanet scam, the Electoral Commission will be watching their activites in marginals even more closely.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 16:12

It's thought by many UK political analysts that voters will punish govts if they think they are being asked to vote sooner than necessary

I remember the 2 x 1974 GEs, especially as I could vote for the first time in the October one

A minority govt was regarded as unstable, coalition as un-British,
so Wilson called a 2nd one as soon as he judged the time was right

He was a very skilled political operator, with excellent judgement & timing - not least on when to retire ! -
who on reflection makes Cummings & other spinrats look like the bungling amateurs they are

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:12

and did the Loyalist / DUPes realise Brexit would create border with GB ? You'd think they'd all be getting v angry with Bannon & the Tories right now

I know (not a guess, not a bet. This is stone cold knowledge. It's fact.) that even now, the DUP are working out how best they can use this situation for their own ends. If you want the image in my head (no, not that one Grin) it's of the Colosseum gatekeepers hiding by the walls hoping the lions eat all the Christians before they turn around.

One thing that is just as much a fact is that they aren't thinking about the people of Northern Ireland.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 16:13

The DUPes barely attain Baldrick level with their "cunning plans"

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 16:13

Michael Savage@michaelsavage

Political spin levels at record high, so let's boil this down.

When the EU comes back with its extension, it's decision time for No10:

  1. Try to get Brexit deal through, beyond the Oct 31 deadline.
  1. Formally table an election motion & see if Labour backs it.

That's it.

Also, the various attempts to destroy the union continue at warp speed.
A Labour spokesman says second Scottish independence referendum would "not be an early priority" for a Labour government.

There is huge scope for Labour to reject an election.
The line is no election until no deal is "off the table".
Does an extension until end of January take it off the table? No.
And so we go on.

DarkAtEndOfUk · 23/10/2019 16:16

PMK with thanks.

lonelyplanetmum · 23/10/2019 16:17

On the public wanting an election...
New YouGov poll saying...

Half the country (50%) support calling a general election – more than twice the number who oppose (23%).

All voting groups are in favour of an election.
Conservative voters express the highest levels of support (62% vs 24% opposed)
Labour voters are also much more likely to prefer an election than not (48% vs 25%).

In terms of what side of Brexit that election should take place

38% wanting it before we try and resolve Brexit
40% wanting to wait until after Britain has left the EU.

Conservative voters tend to prefer a post-Brexit election by 47% to 40%. Labour voters are split, with 42% wanting a pre-Brexit election and 39% one that comes after.

Remain and Leave voters:

Remain voters want the election to happen before we exit the EU by 51% to 35%
Leave voters want it after Brexit has happened by 66% to 33%.