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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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youkiddingme · 23/10/2019 14:27

I'm in a local FB group. Not particularly political, just a mix of local interests. A traditional Northern Labour area, but the area voted leave, and chat in the group suggests a lot of Lexiters. There's still a lot of anger against our MP who voted against her constituents but I can see the line softening, with more people seeing that the vote was 'rigged' and she did the correct thing for that reason.
But what I'm increasingly seeing is people who can't vote for Corbyn, and are desperate for the labour party to sort itself out.
If only...

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 14:27

An MP tells me Boris Johnson has just spent quite a while working the Commons tea room, and even sat down at a table to talk to one of the Rebel 21. Not the actions of a PM who doesn’t think he needs this Parliament any more.

But possibly the actions of a man who wants to be seen to continue to need parliament ...

It's the stuff that happens where no one can report on it, that really matters.

I've seen enough crime dramas to know the games lawyers can play when they are "seen" talking to different defendants. It was a plot point in a (US) L&O, where McCoy let himself be seen by one half of a couple on trial talking to the other ....

flouncyfanny · 23/10/2019 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 14:33

DGR

  1. I think Tory party calculation is GE is too risky before a deal because of the Brexit Party (and the possibly more significant LD effect) and they possibly think they might be able to get it through now. There is a fragile coalition and whilst that holds, I think they'll be happy enough without an election.

  2. The threat of No deal has subsided. If the coalition crumbles there might be a problem there again but with a revised deadline. But then more tory MPs want a softer Brexit anyway. So again there is time to see how things progress. For now.

  3. There is the ongoing problem of 'if not Johnson, then who' with ousting Johnson. Whilst there are plenty with personal ambition, none have support required to make the party feel confident about them as an alternative.

  4. As it stands there is also the Corbyn factor. If he goes, panic might set in. But for the time being there is nothing to suggest he will go pre election.

These factors have really all been in play since before May resigned (with the exception of the issue of no deal being somewhat neutralised at least temporarily)

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flouncyfanny · 23/10/2019 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

prettybird · 23/10/2019 14:36

The MN Brexit research is fucking awesome Grin - but it is also necessary to point out that BJ is a bloody wanker who got us into this crap Wink

HeyNotInMyName · 23/10/2019 14:36

This rally talked to me today. So relevant imo to what is happenig here.

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living
RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 14:36

Bruno Waterfield @BrunoBrussels
No extension decision tonight

This evening's Coreper is "information point" or state of play pooling views in all 27 capitals

On Friday if there is a consensus decisionwill be bywritten procedure for Bennact Jan 31 2020 - or a shorter extension, perhaps a month until Nov 30

EU wants to hear what Johnson wants, many see Benn act date as most neutral but could be a shorter one

If there is no unanimous agreement for written procedure by Fri then #EUCO next Monday, 28 October

Surprise!

Not...

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BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 14:38

It would be VERY unusual to have a winter GE:

We had February GEs in 1950 and 1974 (I only remember the latter !)

I can't find records of any November or January GE,
let alone the madness of a December one.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 14:39

1) I think Tory party calculation is GE is too risky before a deal because of the Brexit Party (and the possibly more significant LD effect) and they possibly think they might be able to get it through now. There is a fragile coalition and whilst that holds, I think they'll be happy enough without an election.

I really can't see BXP having such a massive effect on actual seats won in parliament. I really can't. Maybe it's because I'm not a Tory with a guilty conscience.

I can see a lot of big Tory backers putting a lot of money into BXP. But that's not the same thing.

From my uninformed point of view, Tory concerns about BXP are more of a phobia as well as being contradictory. Either Boris is big enough and bluff enough to take on BXP with his dazzling oratory, grasp of facts, and razor sharp intellect; in which case, they are no threat.

Or he isn't. In which case the Tories need to fix that, rather than mess around trying to find solutions elsewhere.

Brexiteers are the only ones who can think in binary. I grew up on it ffs.

Sostenueto · 23/10/2019 14:40

PMK

Hoooo · 23/10/2019 14:41

Pmk

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 23/10/2019 14:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 14:41

HeyNotInMyName

Typical liberal elite posting poetry ....

Grin
flouncyfanny · 23/10/2019 14:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tanith · 23/10/2019 14:44

I'm wondering how much of the Tory party wants to go into a Boris-led election ?

I'm sure they remember how Theresa May and her "Strong And Stable" robotics was received in the last election.
They must wake at night in a cold sweat at the thought of their very own version of Roy Hattersley blethering on incoherently.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 14:45

Tim Shipman@shippersunbound
There’s a man walking up Whitehall carrying a three foot long plastic model of the Titanic. This no longer seems strange

Mark Gardiner @margarine
Once upon a time that would have been labelled unthinkable.

Tim Shipman@shippersunbound
We have a winner

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Dusty01 · 23/10/2019 14:45

I know you’re joking DGR. But that poem is very sad and also very beautiful. It sums Britain (at the moment) up.

HeyNotInMyName · 23/10/2019 14:48

I know DGR but what can I do? I just cant help myself these days Grin

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 14:48

We had February GEs in 1950 and 1974 (I only remember the latter !)

74 was a fucking disaster for the Tories. They won in February (just) and then Ted Heath was forced to go to the country in October to get an answer to the question "Who runs Britain ?". Which the electorate helpfully resolved as "Not you, yacht-boy".

We then had (as good as) 5 years of Labour working on their end-of-term production of The Winter of Our Discontent which was most certainly made glorious by this sunny of Jim. Admittedly that greased the skids for 18 years of Tory rule, so maybe losing wasn't so bad after all.

tobee · 23/10/2019 14:54

Annoyed to read that the BBC had to apologise after 222 complaints were received when Andrew Marr asked Priti Patel why she was laughing. As it has now been accepted that Priti Patel's natural expression is smug and insufferable. Or something. Still people will remember the tv interview.

Oh yeah, more cats please!

GeistohneGrenzen · 23/10/2019 14:55

pmk

Mistigri · 23/10/2019 14:56

I really can't see BXP having such a massive effect on actual seats won in parliament. I really can't. Maybe it's because I'm not a Tory with a guilty conscience.

It depends where those votes are. The Tories potentially face a double whammy in some constituencies where the LDs take votes to the left and BXP to their right.

However it appears to me that the BXP threat has been reduced (but not eliminated) in recent weeks, basically because the Tory party has become the BXP/UKIP in all but name. And I think there is some understanding among the more sentient Brexiters that if they don't support the Fatberg's deal they may not leave at all.

Plus it strikes me (from watching the Brexiters on social media) that an awful lot of them like having a PM who lies, cheats on female partners, makes racially charged jokes, threatens opponents with violence etc. Most of the characteristics that fail to endear the Fatberg to the "liberal elite" are not just irrelevant to this group of voters, but are actually considered positive: he "gets the job done", the end justifies the means.

I don't think the tories are out of the woods yet but they have in some respects played a blinder, by recognising that appealing to the lowest common denominator was a viable electoral policy. Most of us want to think better of the electorate, but I totally stand by my "gullible and racist" comment (while hoping that a GE proves me wrong, of course).

ListeningQuietly · 23/10/2019 14:58

A Winter GE would be "interesting" because crap weather could have a significant impact on turnout.
A December GE would be incredibly damaging to the retail sector so the Tories might find their coffers less full than they would hope.

DadDadDad · 23/10/2019 15:00

Wintry GEs in 20th century, from the list on Wikipedia, before the 1974 and 1950 ones mentioned above:
14 Nov 1935
6 Dec 1923
15 Nov 1922
(an unstable time: GE in 1922, 1923 and 1924)
14 Dec 1918
31 Jan 1911
15 Feb 1910
13 Feb 1906