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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:17

He was a very skilled political operator, with excellent judgement & timing - not least on when to retire !

Each passing day simply adds to his reputation. I grew up in his final years as PM (DM was most certainly not a fan ...) and can recall the day he resigned. First thing DM said was "What's going to go wrong ?". When I asked why she said "Well he'd only resign if something really bad is going to happen.".

But if for no other reason, his dogged refusal to let the UK get dragged into Vietnam - even if it happened to chime with the Labour party reality - certainly deserves note.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:20

Michael Gove confirms Scotland will be at a competitive disadvantage - 22.10.19

Basilpots · 23/10/2019 16:27

medium.com/@psurridge/how-to-read-a-constituency-19093d604ae2

This might be of interest to some.

It’s a guide on how to give an educated guess on how likely election results may go.

It may also explain why some of the Tory party are not as keen as Cummings for an election. They really won’t want BXP standing against them in all their seats.

I did it on my home constituency (Leave Tory) and where I work (Leave Labour) and it have different results although both hold similarities sized majorities. Conservatives are squeezed in home constituency enough by both BXP and Lib to allow a Labour win. In contrast my work constituency Labour hold enough to keep their seat.

Turnout will be key, as will how many of Pretzels angry train man there are and how many are bothered enough to turn out and vote for Johnson. As ever beware the undecideds.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:28

OK, so it's not poetry, but I like it ...

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living
ListeningQuietly · 23/10/2019 16:30

It will be interesting to see what impact the terrible case of the 39 people in a lorry in Essex has.

The rig is Bulgarian. The people in it are obviously non EU - probably Syrian.
It got to Essex via the western French / Spanish ports, into probably Rosslare then up to Dublin and thence to Holyhead and on to Essex.
Those poor men had probably been in there for over a week.

Calais/Dunkirk/Zeebrugge/Dieppe Dover/Ramsgate/Newhaven have the thermal cameras that check all trucks.
The western ports clearly do not.

Holyhead and Pembroke will become prime entry points from the EU to the UK
just at a time when Northern Ireland is being amalgamated into the Republic

What could possibly go wrong Sad

woodpigeons · 23/10/2019 16:30

Can we have ‘secret plans and clever tricks’ from The Enormous Crocodile BigChoc.
It didn’t turn out too well for him.

prettybird · 23/10/2019 16:32

I suppose the January and December elections in 1910 can be discounted because they were before universal suffrage. They were also the last time the Liberal Party won Shock

Going back and looking up history shows how WW1 was followed by over a decade of instability in UK GEs: how much of that was due to a realignment of political "norms" as the new party lines established themselves? Hmm

After the 1918 GE (also held in December Wink), there was an election in 1922, 1923 and 1924 Shock (November, December and October respectively Wink), before yet another hung parliament in 1929 Shock

MockersthefeMANist · 23/10/2019 16:32

The Essex Lorry story is becoming clearer. The Bulgarian registered but Irish owned tractor travelled to Purfleet to collect the container off a ferry from Zeebrugge.

DarkAtEndOfUk · 23/10/2019 16:33

I like that one DGR. That phrase about being the enemy of their own children rings only too true thinking of the older generations (age 50+) and their all-too-common attitudes towards younger complaints of fees, debt, housing quality and house prices.

ListeningQuietly · 23/10/2019 16:39

Mockers
Sadly that is a relief - because it means the western routes are not yet massively in use - because the deaths on those long crossings would be awful.
BUT
Interesting that the cameras did not spot them on the ferry
implies they were dead before that
and
the fact that the chap picking up the unaccompanied trailer has been arrested with the word murder used is even more interesting.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:42

Serious question. How did he vote. (And yes, you can read that how you wish).

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=457786334856970

regarding the terrible news from Essex, horrible as it may seem, I wonder if those 39 souls ever had a chance of getting out alive, once they stepped into that unit ? These are dark times, and there is evil abroad.

MockersthefeMANist · 23/10/2019 16:44

It's not entirely clear yet, but the lazy media are throwing the word 'lorry' around and not understanding that an articulated HGV is composed of a tractor unit and whatever trailer you attach.

A 'lorry,' strictly speaking, is a fixed chassis commercial vehicle with a cab separated from the load space. Where the load space and the cab are integral, it is a van.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:47

Going back and looking up history shows how WW1 was followed by over a decade of instability in UK GEs: how much of that was due to a realignment of political "norms" as the new party lines established themselves?

I think losing a massive chunk of 21-40 year olds might have had an effect too.

I did ask many threads ago, if we - the UK and maybe the world - are seeing some sort of generation correction, as we haven't had that demographic blown to bits to leave a hole in society that tipped the balance in previous generations ?

Demographically are we closer to a sort of 1649-1914 position ?

Hoooo · 23/10/2019 16:48

There is evil under the sun :(

MockersthefeMANist · 23/10/2019 16:52

The postwar instability was largely the fallings out among the left, which might have formed one Lib-Lab party, but instead split into five different parties, two Labour and three Liberal, thanks largely to the personal animosities among the senior figures.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:53

The media getting something wrong ? Never. Never I tell you ...

meanwhile, if only Leave.eu had been subject to the same level of scrutiny as to what Victorian homosexuals really got up to ....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50153743

PotterHead1985 · 23/10/2019 16:54

Was out all day. So lost. Anyone do me a bullet point summary of what I missed?

DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 16:56

A 'lorry,' strictly speaking, is a fixed chassis commercial vehicle with a cab separated from the load space. Where the load space and the cab are integral, it is a van.

And Luton vans are so named because they look like hats (or hatboxes) which were made in Luton - the UKs hat centre for decades.

You'd never know that before metrology, I worked in logistics .... tramping module Grin.

ListeningQuietly · 23/10/2019 17:02

Mockers
The postwar instability was largely the fallings out among the left, which might have formed one Lib-Lab party, but instead split into five different parties, two Labour and three Liberal, thanks largely to the personal animosities among the senior figures.
Before the referendum there was a wonderful analysis about how the right in the form of the Tory Party was always a broad church that allowed extremists in as well as wets because then they could be controlled
but the Left was always racked with schisms and splitters and lots of tiny radical parties - because their extremists did not want to be in the same party as their wets Blairites

OhYouBadBadKitten · 23/10/2019 17:04

It's so so shit re the people who died. Smugglers will have shoved them on after taking a large payment. The people getting on will have had no idea what route they would end up taking.
It's not uncommon for refugees to find themselves in entirely different cities (often Paris) despite being promised and paying for the UK.

It's an utterly evil business.

MockersthefeMANist · 23/10/2019 17:11

Broad Working Assumption:

The Left are Stupid. The Right are Evil.

And so it has always been the case that 'loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.' But the current crisis indicated a move away from mainstream conservative ideology to NeoCon and NeoLiberal ideas centring on notions of, ironically, an elite born to rule (see Ayn Rand, Saj's bedtime reading) who pacify the little people with patriotic fairy tales, much as Milosevic told the Serbs about the Slavic equivalent of Arthurian legend.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2019 17:12

BJ approval rating after 3 months in office compares poorly with that of his predecessors:

If Corbyn decided his allotment was more interesting (now yet), so Labour needed another leader before the GE ....

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-data-poll-a-nation-discontented-and-divided-11841932

this level of approval after just three months in office is modest by historical standards - and worse than every one of the past five PMs at the same stage:

John Major (+44%), Tony Blair (+46%), Gordon Brown (+18%), David Cameron (+34%) and Mrs May (+16%).

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living
DGRossetti · 23/10/2019 17:13

And so it has always been the case that 'loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

I suggested a "CompareTheParty" approach to politics years ago ....

ListeningQuietly · 23/10/2019 17:20

Mockers
I suspect the difference is more that ....
The right owns stuff and has more to lose from being out of power than the left.

NoWordForFluffy · 23/10/2019 17:24

If BoZo has decided he doesn't want an election, that's all the more reason to have one.

Issues for him:

  1. There are MANY leavers who want no deal (regardless of the fact that the new WA is nigh-on no deal) just because they do. 'We just want out and to leave!' they cry; and
  1. He's just negotiated his WA, meaning he now has to back it during a GE, otherwise he'll be doing EXACTLY what Labour is being slated for and negotiating a deal then not supporting it during an election campaign.

These two things mean that the BXP will hoover up a huge chunk of the Tory right vote as they will campaign on a no deal ticket.

With votes bleeding from the centre left as well to the LDs, as was said earlier, this could put them in a tricky position in some seats. Especially where Labour also lose votes to the LDs.

A GE could throw up some rather interesting results.

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