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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

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RedToothBrush · 27/09/2019 13:37

My view is the THE worst future for the country.

Therefore, I will support ANY other future, even if there are inherent dangers and ideas that I fundamentally disagree with as part of that.

Not because I support them, but because its THE LEAST WORST OPTION AVAILABLE.

My vote will not be one which is affirmative FOR something, but one which is based on a risk assessment of what works out as the best AGAINST something.

This is why politics is fundamentally broken in this country and why people are so got damn fed up, because the majority are voting in this way.

No one is actively voting FOR a future that they like the look of.

A poll published by IPSOS Mori last week, had the UK as the most pessimistic in the world about the future.

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
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MockersthefeMANist · 27/09/2019 13:38

When did I ever say I supported Corbyn?

All calls to incite violence are wrong from whatever source, and in many cases criminal.

CendrillonSings · 27/09/2019 13:38

BigChoc

See what I mean? McDonnell can literally say that the public should personally confront Tory MPs whenever and wherever they see them, and you put the most positive spin on it. “Oh, challenge just means polite and peaceful protest”.

But Boris, who has never (to the best of my knowledge!) encouraged the public to personally confront opposition MPs, gets no such benefit of the doubt when he uses much less inflammatory language.

Things that make you go hmmmm Hmm

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2019 13:39

My view is no deal and/or a Johnson government* the THE worst future for the country.

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BigChocFrenzy · 27/09/2019 13:40

Random No, there will be no new WA - at most the backstop reverting to NI only, plus cosmetic changes

I have thought since December that the least dangerous way to resolve this crisis is just to pass the WA, as is

After all BJ's rhetoric about no deal with the backstop, I doubt if he would bring that back

However, the Kinnock amendment, "accidentally" let through

  • the Men in Grey slipping in a backstop against BJ ? - states that if there is no extension by a certain date, then the WA should be brought back for Mps to vote on
RedToothBrush · 27/09/2019 13:40

CendrillonSings I foresee civil unrest, in most potential future political scenarios ahead.

Thats part of the problem for me.

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DGRossetti · 27/09/2019 13:43

Does anyone know how I can report that silly boy for incitement to riot? I think it's time people like him should be held to account for their words.

Do we still have a police force left ?

Random18 · 27/09/2019 13:45

BCF I am actually hoping that the opposition vote for a Deal.

But manage to do it in a way that undermines johnson.

CendrillonSings · 27/09/2019 13:47

That would be a terrible problem for everyone - I remember the last set of riots, and they were awful. Let’s try to get out of this shitstorm peacefully, for god’s sake!

MockersthefeMANist · 27/09/2019 13:48

Regards the legitimacy of political violence in certain circumstances, I recommend Nelson Mandela's Rivonia speech.

The Chartists, cited by O'Neill, were as impeccably behaved as the crowd at Peterloo. The Gilets Jaunes were and are violent anarchists who wish to fund the state on reneged loans and confiscation, and a cursory glance at Youtube will show they were violent against persons and property.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/09/2019 13:48

cendrillon BJ is the PM
and he spent hours mocking MPS telling him of death threats to them and their families
Mocking the murder of a Labour MP by the far right

Telling them to vote for Brexit or it would continue

That is a sociopath PM clearly condoning, even threatening violence

First get rid of a govt I know is dangerous
McDonnell may or may not be, but until he uses death threats like BJ, I don't care

Every Labour leader since Wilson has been demonised by Tories as a dreadful danger to the country
Under Wilson, the military & intelligence services even discussed some half-arsed coups.

Maybe now there is a genuine danger from the left
but after 50 years of seeing a bacon sandwich demonised, the right have cried wolf too often for me to take them seriously

BigChocFrenzy · 27/09/2019 13:50

Gilets Jaune have some members who fought for the Russians in the Ukraine & Crimea

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 27/09/2019 13:52

Just seen that Sturgeon is hinting for a pact with Labour to stop no deal. Would this make them the biggest party in the house?🙏

TheABC · 27/09/2019 13:54

At this stage, signing the WA appears to be the best route out.

I would love to see a sensible GNU, but it should have happened long before now.

Alsohuman · 27/09/2019 13:55

Does anyone think next week, with many if not most Tories in Manchester, events in the HoC might be pretty interesting?

MockersthefeMANist · 27/09/2019 13:55

We used to shout the (now thought obscene) chorus of the original down the school corridors. Good to see that Tom has given us a new version for the times-a-changing.

TheABC · 27/09/2019 13:58

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince, that would give them 282 against the Conservative's 288.

Independent MPs make up the largest group after the SNP. If another 10 of them could be persuaded, Corbyn would have a shot at power.

MrPan · 27/09/2019 13:59

Labour still have head bangers like Hoey and Stringer.

FoldyRoll · 27/09/2019 14:03

#GetBrexitDone is trending on Twitter. As far as I can see it's all people taking the piss but that could be algorithmic reinforcement. Anyway. It turned up this gem.

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
tobee · 27/09/2019 14:09

The weird thing about Cendrillon is I've never seen them write anything pro Tory.

ContinuityError · 27/09/2019 14:10

Foldyroll Brian Bilston is great! Here’s another one of his.

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
Basilpots · 27/09/2019 14:11

Anyone else got that Friday feeling again....

DorisDaysDadsDogsDead · 27/09/2019 14:11

Haven't caught up on the thread yet, but I don't think this has been mentioned yet. BJ's "technology assistant" has links to Epstein.

FoldyRoll · 27/09/2019 14:13

No tobee, the weird thing about Cendrillon is that anyone still bothers to read what she writes. It's been a very long time since she stopped pretending to engage in good faith.

pumkinspicetime · 27/09/2019 14:16

Brexit isn't a right/left issue in the traditional sense.
I am surprised that anyone still thinks it is.
Hoey is on the same side as JRM.
Major is on the same side as Thornberry.
Talking about opposition in the traditional sense cendrillion has very little meaning.
The solution if one can be found will have to come from a cross party basis. Which it should given the gravity of the changes we are talking about.

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