Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

In what way am I a hypocrite if I condemn calls for violence, even non-violent violence, from whatever source as equally wrong?

If you support Corbyn for PM, you’ll be installing John McDonnell as his Chancellor. You may decide that it’s worth it, but then don’t pretend that the misuse of language overrides all other political concerns.

....Still here, and still struggling with how condemning all violence from whatever source makes me a hypocrite?

So Boris Johnson trying to get someone beaten up is acceptable then Cendrillon? Not just rhetoric but action.

in Padfield Lord Reid states

If it isthe Minister's duty not to act so as to frustrate the policy and objects ofthe Act, and if it were to appear from all the circumstances of the casethat that has been the effect of the Minister's refusal, then it appears to methat the Court must be entitled to act.

It would be difficult to argue that any attempt to set aside the Benn Act did not have the effect of frustrating the Act so as Lark says that brings it into the ambit of the court.

This suggestion that rather than representative democracy making government responsibleand accountable to the voters, you invert this and suggest that the voters are accountable for what the elected politicians say and do.

These were the words of the leader of the 7/7 bombers, justifying why all those people on the tubes and buses got what was coming to them.

Cendrillon you are obviously backing BJ. That's your choice. But you are choosing to ignore his language and think it's acceptable.

I will vote for Labour even though I do not think Corbyn / McDonnell should be in the roles they are.

At this time I think the risk from Boris us a lot worse.

But I cannot imagine any next government lasting t years.

*5 years

Not very Conservatiive, is it ?

Busy digesting and regurgitating the Stasi playbook and still Cendrillon screams about Reds under the Bed.

Hate any type of incendiary language from anyone from either side left/right leave/remain.

I will however judge it even more seriously when it comes from the mouth of our prime minister at the despatch box in the HOC.

It is not just what is said but also by whom and in what situation which can have a greater influence on the actions of others.

Cendrillon You really don't get it:
Most of us here aren't Corbyn supporters, or even Labour
So they are not "our side"

We are just calling out the side we think presents the greatest danger at the moment
Which is the side that is in government, with all the extra powers that brings

afaik, no centrist has called for riots or blamed victims of death threats

BJ is saying the same sort of thing as McDonnell used to
BUT
BJ has ramped up the stakes, because he is saying these things publicly in the HoC as PM, speaking for a government
They are organised together in what they are saying

Very much more serious than McDonnell who was then an obscure Opposition backbencher speaking as an individual.
He had never held govt office at the time and still hasn't

You have to go back several years to when he expressed such opinions, whereas BJ and ministers are trying to stir up violence now

Oh, and if we’re talking about encouraging the public to personally confront MPs, here’s a Huffington Post report about - you guessed it! - John McDonnell:

m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-mcdonnell-defy-strike-laws-insurrection-tory-social-criminals-try-them-marxist-crisis-of-capitalism-unite-the-resistance_uk_58b5778ee4b060480e0bd257

At a Unite the Resistance conference in November 2012, the MP for Hayes and Harlington called for Tory MPs and ministers to be constantly tracked by protestors.

“I want to be in a situation where no Tory MP, no Coalition Minister can travel anywhere in the country, or show their face anywhere in public, without being challenged.”

Still supporting him to become Chancellor?

Farage has used words like *n#g-n#gs and n#gg#r and chanted "gas the Jews" in his younger days

But this is nowhere near as important as what BJ said, or what that anonymous minister said

because Farage is not in government

I can’t understand why Cendrillon addresses this thread as if everyone on here apart from her is a Momentum activist. I am a member of the Labour Party, but thinking of leaving because I don’t think Mr Corbyn is a good leader, although I do think he he an honest and decent man, and that counts for something. I am centrist in my thinking, and most people on here seem to be fairly moderate also, I have been on marches, and believe peaceful protest is a democratic right. I would hate to be caught up in a riot.
I am really worried by this speculation about shorting the pound though. Do you have a view, Cendrillon?

Here we go:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008rwl/politics-live-27092019

FF to 25 mins.

Farage has used words like n#g-n#gs and n#gg#r and chanted "gas the Jews" in his younger days*

Trouble is BCF they wont see that as shocking because its language and views they themselves hold

I don't think Cummings wants a deal if you see here where he is confronted with a direct question about a deal and doesn't mention a deal in response, just that we will leave.

Cummings won't say that though.

He knew well enough that the only way to win the ref was to be vague about what Leave meant.

The same applies to getting the Conservatives to win the next GE. He has to hold together a group of vastly different views. The way he does this is by blowing hot and cold but never actually comitting to either view, but saying enough so people buy into whichever view is closest to theirs and their belief that its ultimately what the Conservatives will do.

"Challenged" / = not given death threats or threats against family members
Booed like Osbourne at the Para Olympic Games
Placards outside every speech he makes

Challenged like Blair is challenged wherever he goes, by that campaign to have him charged over Iraq
People keeping making citizens arrests, totally meaningless and ignored by his bodyguards

PMK thanks

So I al trying to figure out what BJ's plans will be if he does being back a deal.

Its clear it won't be changed from May's WA agreement. So how can he sell that to his own party?

Does he say this is what I've got - you should vote against it?

Or does he vote for it, knowing that the vote won't go through. Would he then get his No Deal?

The opposition have 2 things they need to achieve and I'm not sure if it's possible.

They need to stop No Deal and they need to weaken BJ before an election.

Going for a GNU will most likely mean more votes for BJ at election.

So does it really help?

Sorry just my thoughts going around. Apart from a deal I just can't see how this can end well.

In a democracy, demonstrators can - and do - peacefully "challenge" any politician at a public engagement, anyway generally paid for by public funds
(but NOT at home, or in their private life)

JustAnotherPoster00

Cendrillon Id engage with you if you ever had a point to make

I do indeed have a point to make - I challenge the Opposition’s hypocrisy and do it with direct quotes and facts from named media sources.

I know you don’t like having the pious sanctimony of the left exposed, but as you say, a little critical thinking is good for the soul.

I am so sick and tired of people trying to push this one side or another. It totally ignores so many of us feel politically homeless at the moment and have done for ages. It is deliberately deigned to fuel the divide and rule approach that is currently being carried out. I would say it is lazy thinking but it’s much more deliberate than that and designed to create a false narrative.

Cendrillon Jess Phillip's was interviewed on Sky today. Have a watch and see what you think.