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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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MrPan · 27/09/2019 08:32

It was pitiful to be sat in a local NHS hospital waiting room, and realising I was in company with far more elderly folks who were quite ill.....and the majority one suspects had voted Leave....

bellinisurge · 27/09/2019 08:36

Sorry you were in A&E. Don't be too sure that the most elderly voted Leave. This is a baby boomer fantasy. My late elderly Mum (who spent more time than I'd like in A&E with me and dsis for company)voted Remain.

Myriade · 27/09/2019 08:36

Real life leavers I know are just sick of it

Yep. That’s my MIL. We nearly had a huge fall out about Brexit. Now she just refuses to listen to the news and follow things because she is sick of it.
But then she is also the type of person who will believe what an MP is saying, wo being able to read between the lines....

I have to say I’m wondering what she is making of BJ (I’m not going to ask her)

Mistigri · 27/09/2019 08:37

I am prodding stupid people in the Brexit arms atm (cos time to kill while riding an exercise bike at the physio). "Patriots" who know nothing about their country's institutions.

Emilyontmoor · 27/09/2019 08:39

In Hong Kong now Triad gangs are being allowed by the Police to beat up and intimidate protestors. It has always been a tactic of the CCP to work with criminal gangs to maintain order. I wouldn’t put it past Cummings down the line to use the Robinson bully boys, “bald men in bad trainers” as one speaker at recent protests called them, in a similar way.

Myriade · 27/09/2019 08:41

But that would the hallmark of a dictatorship NOT the one of a democracy.....

Can you see we are all conditioned to slowly envisage/accept things that are unacceptable?

MrPan · 27/09/2019 08:41

It wasn't A&E bellinsurge, but thanks for the sentiment. It was a surgical/triage thing with MrsPan.
Age-related voting - I was just going off the research. And yes of course IF parents were both still with us, they'd be ardent remainers.

ClashCityRocker · 27/09/2019 08:46

I can't see any of the people I know who voted leave out rioting.

Although I live in a city where when the BNP tried to protest outside a mosque, the mosque leaders invited them in for a cup of tea. Which they rather sheepishly went in for.

I don't really know many leavers who feel that strongly about it, to be honest. There is a lot of 'just get on with it' and that they're sick of it.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/09/2019 08:49

The vast majority of leavers are normal everyday people who were fed up with feeling left behind and wanted someone to speak up for them. They are not rioters or lawless.
I strongly suspect that the Establishment as a whole does not want chaos and disorder.
I suspect the men in grey suits are quietly looking for a cupboard to lock BJ if he looks like he will cause any more trouble.

kingsassassin · 27/09/2019 08:49

I'm in remain central here - oxford. There was a small leaver protest at the EU elections - big banners saying 'leave now' and people outside chanting.

The people being most vocal we're sitting outside their sheltered housing complex in their motorised wheelchairs hanging out leaflets...i dint think they'd do much rioting...

unwravellingagain · 27/09/2019 08:50

Finally, before I go and do something for a bit, some more high class Remainer march for you - a bag which says Girly Swot with a picture of Lady Hale's brooch.

Also, the people who did the spider brooch t-shirt have raised £15,000 for Shelter, so that's one good thing for the day.

unwravellingagain · 27/09/2019 08:50

MERCH.

prettybird · 27/09/2019 08:53

My 82 year old dad (he of the "Boris Johnson is a c...." song Wink) and all his friends (including his Conservative voting doctor friends/former colleagues who he said were very quiet yesterday at their weekly lunch ) voted Remain Smile

But there again we're in Scotland Wink

bellinisurge · 27/09/2019 08:53

That is a fab bag. If I didn't live in such a strong Leave area, I would get one.

MrPan · 27/09/2019 08:56

Yes, we had Tommy Robinson and his crew outside 'my' mosque in Didsbury, Manchester last year I think it was. About 75 of them on a pavement shouting things across the road to the mosque. One copper on duty looking very bored.
And yes they were ALL male, fat and very ugly.

Pilcrow · 27/09/2019 08:59

My 96-year-old MIL also voted remain. Loathes Johnson. I don't think she's quite ready for your dad's song, though, pretty Grin (although Dh and I often play it to cheer ourselves up a bit)

Mistigri · 27/09/2019 08:59

"Also, the people who did the spider brooch t-shirt have raised £15,000 for Shelter, so that's one good thing for the day."

Good grief.

I want one of those bags to carry provocatively through stansted airport on the way to/from the march.

LizzieSiddal · 27/09/2019 08:59

Love that bag!

Couldn’t use it where I live but may buy it just to hang off a doorknob in the house.

Camomila · 27/09/2019 09:13

I was in A&E last night (I'm fine, babys fine :) )
Thought one - All the lovely night shift nurses were Spanish.
Thought two - no one asked to see any ID or anything (will they start after no deal?)
Thought three - I'm glad they left the homeless lady alone to sleep, it was pouring with rain.

I only know one leaver well, she thinks BJ is ridiculous and that its awful female MPs are receiving death threats.
DH (remainer, but usually thinks both sides 'give as good as they get', and that its often pantomine shouting) was also scandilised the other night, as was DM (who doesn't always pick up nuances in English)

I think if the MSM media played more short clips of what is actually happening in parliament - upset women asking for reasonableness, posh man ignoring it.
A lot of swing voters/soft leavers etc. would have a change of heart about voting Tory. He's not coming off as a 'lovable bufoon' anymore.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 27/09/2019 09:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

360eyes · 27/09/2019 09:15

Just seen the article about Brexit propaganda broadcast in primary schools. It just gets more and more ridiculous doesn't it? How desperate.

It feels like we are in North Korea.

QueenOfThorns · 27/09/2019 09:16

I think you’re all correct about the threat of widespread rioting being a pile of crap. I think the more realistic outcome of this incitement is another attack on a single MP or prominent Remain campaigner, like the one on Jo Cox Sad

(Hi MrPan, nice to see another another local Westminstender!)
(@BercowsFlyingFlamingo my boy cat looks a lot more like yours that the girl cat in yesterday’s pic. Uncannily so, in fact! Does your feline overlord have a loud yowl and a penchant for squirrel murder as well?)

tobee · 27/09/2019 09:16

I'm the type of person Dominic Cummings would tell journalists to avoid completely. I don't have any friends or family who voted Leave. My remain parents have some leave friends though. Who they regularly row with.

Re Cummings and incitement to violence, I think the more dangerous thing to take from him deliberately taking the headlines over this is to whip up emotions and further their anger to vote Tory in the election, "you're right to be angry about this." Rather than take to the streets. His whole leave strategy has been creating the illusion that the EU was something we all had strong views on, was first and foremost the reason we vote in the way we do.

BirdandSparrow · 27/09/2019 09:18

pmk

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 27/09/2019 09:20

@MrPan hello from the opposite side of Stockport.
@QueenOfThorns he is very chatty but no squirrels nearby thankfully. He is our neighbours cat but the dc and I fuss over him a great deal so he meows at our doors to come in as though he's actually ours and how dare we keep him waiting. He doesn't get fed by us so is obviously just in it for the attention.