Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
MrPan · 27/09/2019 09:21

Is Cummings paid by the BBC? They appear to have the same objectives.

MrPan · 27/09/2019 09:25

Hi 'local' Westminstenders!
Diders is my mosque but am actually in Glossop. Hence the semi-rural aspect re rioting.

Couple of years ago we had a UKIPer man with a small stall in the town centre. He looked like the sort who shouts at clouds. And locals were expressing care for him rather than a political allegiance.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 27/09/2019 09:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hoooo · 27/09/2019 09:32

Morning, my friends.

Off to a meeting today to try and get a CAP centre started in my town.

I can do nothing about bo/cum and the HofC so I'm trying to concentrate on what I can do.

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 27/09/2019 09:45

Who's the Scottish eye candy MP on AOP on sky right now? He's brightened up my day Grin

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 27/09/2019 09:49

MrPan I'm practically next door and I can't see either of our towns rioting. The Peaks are a calming influence. Hard to be angry when faced with such beautiful views.

Apileofballyhoo · 27/09/2019 09:49

Just seen the article about Brexit propaganda broadcast in primary schools. It just gets more and more ridiculous doesn't it? How desperate.

In China, it was students and school children whom were incited by Mao to start the cultural revolution. Parents were afraid to discuss politics at home for fear of their children and themselves being targeted. The love Mao programming had started in schools a long time before the cultural revolution.

Cummings reminds me of Chairman Mao more than anyone else.

Apileofballyhoo · 27/09/2019 09:52

Who^

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 27/09/2019 09:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 27/09/2019 09:59

Parents were afraid to discuss politics at home for fear of their children and themselves being targeted.

Same in East Germany, under the Stasi.

Teachers would ask children to hum the news theme to identify parents watching the banned West German news.

And of course the UK has been using children to check their parents immigration status for a while now.

Basilpots · 27/09/2019 09:59

Chances of any of the leavers I know in actual real life not somewhere in an angry place on the internet shouting at each other rioting?

Arf. Octogenarian parents don’t think so.

Couple of folks that work for us not a chance.

General attitude amongst them is trust the Tories to *k it up.

TheElementsSong · 27/09/2019 10:00

Cummings reminds me of Chairman Mao more than anyone else.

Cummings is more like a pound shop Rasputin but entirely without the legendary sensual magnetism.

DGRossetti · 27/09/2019 10:04

Comment from elsewhere, which is worth noting:

The last week has shown me that very few people in the uk know how our democracy works. It is terrifying. Now people want to rip up and change this thing that they don’t understand for the sake of something they voted for that was constrained and defined by our system of governance, the very thing they don’t understand.

They are angry because the process they don’t understand is taking too long to happen because our democracy, the thing they don’t understand, is working as it should. Now if you look at the language boris et al are using it starts to make sense why, they are appealing specifically to this base, Cummings is particularly contemptuous of parliamentary and civil service procedure.

Now if I were to be facetious, I’d start throwing out a phrase I saw a lot immediately following the referendum: if you don’t like how our democracy works, why don’t you fuck off to Russia.

LouiseCollins28 · 27/09/2019 10:09

Have any Westministenders been on the "Peoples Vote" marches please? The coverage I've seen suggests these have been basically wholly or at least overwhelming majority pro "Remain" marches. Is that right? Thanks.

Cailleach1 · 27/09/2019 10:15

When MP Karl Turner went up to Cummings, one thing struck me. Here was an unelected bureaucrat (however freelance) actively working to undermine British Parliamentary sovereignty. All ready for the UK to become some sort of state vulnerable to very strange interests. A state in hock to these interests: a vassal to them if you like. Should have said it for the cameras.

Hiding in plain sight. Eh. All the things unelected, hired parliamentary sovereignty wrecker Cummings was ranting against in the Parliamentary Committee hearing.

I know emotions are high (this atmosphere being deliberately created by these wreckers), but they need not to be able to get such a reaction that the spotlight goes from their unlawful actions as decided by the Supreme Court and the alleged crookedness of Johnson in his prior elected office. There needs to be no let up of investigation on lots of public money being allegedly diverted to cronies.

He had the nerve to say he cycled freely as Mayor when he didn't have a similar group of wreckers stirring up hatred in a similar way against him. They are creating a very friable environment.

rant over.

JeSuisPoulet · 27/09/2019 10:16

Louise I actually know someone who didn't vote at all who has been on one and one lady who voted leave (she's a nurse and cited the bus) and now wants another say. I think we need to move away from asking which way was voted 3.5yrs ago and focus on wanting to be able to have another opinion if you go on a People's March.

NoCryingInEngineering · 27/09/2019 10:18

2 leavers on my FB posting about how useless parliament is. One at least on the surface fairly detailed about how the shouting and braying looks to the world. The other with quoted aboutery of a Labour MP being rude about a Conservative "But this must be OK because it's not a Tory doing it".

Would love to respond but will totally fail to make sense. I suspect Leaver 2 is getting fed some pretty consistent messages from some were though

Cailleach1 · 27/09/2019 10:22

The 'Wilding of the world' is quite apt about what is being tried on.

LouiseCollins28 · 27/09/2019 10:22

Thanks JeSuisPoulet hopefully others will respond to my question too. I am keen, at this point, to just understand what the "People's Vote" marches were really like from people who were there rather than just what I've seen on the news.

DarlingNikita · 27/09/2019 10:25

LouiseCollins28, I've been on two. I'm a remainer. I saw a mix of pro-remain signs and sentiments and more neutral/pro-vote sentiments like 'give us the choice' and 'this is democracy' etc.

MargoLovebutter · 27/09/2019 10:30

What do we think about John Major's proposition that Boris & Co may try to circumvent the Statute Law, by passing an Order of Council to suspend the Act prohibiting us leaving without a deal until after 31 October?

Tanith · 27/09/2019 10:31

“Have any Westministenders been on the "Peoples Vote" marches please? The coverage I've seen suggests these have been basically wholly or at least overwhelming majority pro "Remain" marches. Is that right? Thanks.”

DH went on the one in March, Louise. He says it was mostly Remain - lots of EU flags in evidence - but there was also a small group of Leavers there that he saw. Bizarrely, they were also protesting about something entirely unrelated - adoption rights, I think. One of them had a megaphone.
The police were keeping a careful eye, but there was no trouble that DH saw.

TheElementsSong · 27/09/2019 10:40

We went to the March one. Unsurprisingly, a large number of people were expressing pro-European sentiments by means of placards, flags and T-shirts. But also loads and loads of placards, banners, etc, for People's Vote and Final Say.

DGRossetti · 27/09/2019 10:41

LouiseCollins28

I've been on two, pushing DWs wheelchair (or buggy as she calls it). Very remain-centric, but completely peaceful, almost jovial. Loads and loads of parents with children from slings to teenagers.

The worst thing was trombone man, on the first march. Now I am as much a fan of sliding brass instruments as the next person, but it is possible to have too much of a good thing.

FMFL · 27/09/2019 10:43

Margo I’m wondering the same. Could it be that simple for BoJO to bypass the law?