Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

Dominic Cummings: PM's right-hand man says MP abuse will cease if they 'respect' Brexit vote

What utter bollocks.

Some of the people getting the worst abuse voted for the WA.

Cabinet minister warns Britain will erupt in violence and rioting if Brexit is not delivered

It seems he wishes to remain anonymous
Raab ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7510453/Cabinet-minister-warns-Britain-erupt-violence-rioting-Brexit-not-delivered.html

Senior minister warned that reversing Brexit could lead to serious civil unrest

7.30am BBC R4 news - headline is Cummings view on MPs.

Is there no end to the rabbit hole?

Cummings is an unelected advisor who is threatening MP’s. This is not British democracy.

What bothers me is that all of the issues BJ is facing is playing to the us v them narrative. Plucky BJ defends the will of the people against the evil establishment. People really really do think that he is a beleaguered hero fighting for their rights as little people - in fact he wouldn’t pee on them if they were on fire.

So they are moving on to the next stage of the plan then?

BJ's had his performance in Parliament.

DC has made his comments.

And now a cabinet minister has started talking about violence. Another tactic to frighten MPs to back BJ.

At some stage, doesn't this breach Parliamentary rules or become Misconduct in Public Office ?

The PM & govt ministers telling MPs to vote Brexit or they & their fmilies continue getting death threats
(um, there's no vote scheduled)

Now telling them there'll be mass riots if they don't

A large minority are lapping it up

History shows that authoritarians support violent disorder when it is for policies they want
but demand everyone else must obey the law or face draconian penalties

Cabinet minister warns Britain will erupt in violence and rioting if Brexit is not delivered
Ah the old if you want your partner to stop beating you then you need to do exactly what they want otherwise what do you expect line of thinking

But who would riot (apart from the Tommy Robinson football hooligans)? Who would organise them - would they self organise? I don’t think so. Would Mumsnet Brexiters and Russian bots be out on the streets with placards, kicking in shop windows? I don’t think so.
It’s a bluff and needs to be called.
It’s true that a small number of determined rioters can cause a lot of trouble - I’ve seen it. But small numbers can easily be contained.
It’s bullshit.

I agree there is no 'organised' rioting blue print ready. We never have, seriously and with a particular focus. iirc, poll tax riots were London-based and other cities were 'mild'. The 'looting' riots 2011 were just that.

I did read recently of the comparison that Khan is being held personally responsible for knife crime, whereas Johnson is hands-clean for the 2011 riots in London. Weird.

About the civil unrest thing- I've heard the soon to be ex MP Zac Goldsmith saying this too. It's humbug.

Sheer nonsense. People who are so unreasonable to go around causing mayhem on the streets would have done it on 29 March 2019. They didn't.

You can't on the one hand say oh these people are violent criminals that will create anarchy. But then say oh but they're reasonable enough to wait over a postponed deadline.

Look at Les Faragists failed march.

Think of the leavers you know.

My FiL and his dodgy hip- rioting? I don't think so.

My friend's ' Christian' but Muslim hating Mum and her little terrier who is scared of crowds.

It's only the Tommy Robinson lit. Yes they are proven to be dangerous but fear of them must not be determinative.

I’m lucky that my close family are all avidly pro-EU. Have gone non-contact with a distant Leaver relative, though.

All this ‘get Brexit done and the death threats will stop’ stuff... brings one word to mind. Blackmail. Two words actually!...Blackmail and incitement.

And it is just opinion. Personally I think it’s a tiny minority who’d actually riot. But these rioters are the type of people who BJ is courting. Dangerous strategy. They’ll turn against him one day, when he can’t produce the goods or it turns out differently to their dream. They’re not wedded to him, just an impossible idea.

My two sisters are avidly remain and are staring in disbelief.
Both of my B-in-Ls are mild leavers only because they have no interest in politics and read newspaper headlines.

Sadly those Tommy Robinson supporters put stickers on the lampposts at the end of my street. I'm hoping the police and (where necessary) security services have their eye on them.
Hopefully cold and rain will keep the twats away.

Quote from the Times article “Even if 99 per cent of them shrug it off, that’s still 100,000 really angry people who will write to their MP and not let it go. It doesn’t take much and soon you have tens of thousands of people on the street.”

How many people went to the last remain protest - over a million wasn't it?

Also, the gilets jaunes have been a problem in France but don't appear to have achieved very much - @Mistigri? Violent protests shouldn't be supported...

The riot narrative has the potential to backfire badly. I agree that any rioters are likely to be EDL types which won’t resonate at all with the more small c conservative leavers.

Both b-in-ls are otherwise first class husbands and fantastic dads. My sisters chose well.
We just skirt around brexit when they are there.

I do have a nasty racist more distant relative. I don't have anything to do with and he will be a leaver - "I'm not racist but....." sort of shithead.

My town is relatively okay, income wise. Probably a leave-voting place, but semi-rural rioting will not be on the menu.

It’s far less pleasant rioting in the colder months anyway. They’d have to wrap up warm and bring brollies.

Born

That's what I am counting on @borntobequiet .

I agree but over on that thread compromise looks impossible. Such anger and bitterness and hatred towards remainers. There is little to no common ground, no desire to compromise, no critical thought and no care for anyone who might be adversely affected because we won, get over it.

I never go in the Brexit Arms - well named - an offshoot of the Brexit party.

Real life leavers I know are just sick of it - the older ones would happily forget about Brexit if the NHS could be sorted out, younger ones, if housing and jobs were sorted. Remember that we Remainers put a million peaceful people on the streets - ordinary Leavers didn't get behind Farage and his mob.

What's going to happen for the big October 19th March though? As many people as possible do need to mobilise for that - but will there be counter-demonstrations? Or do the remainers need to start smashing windows?