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Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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BatSegundo · 26/09/2019 17:14

Delurking to say thank you before I go back to hiding behind the sofa from the horror-show that is our current government.

With regard to the increasingly toxic rhetoric, my personal response has been to try and be more respectful and thoughtful in my real life interactions. I meet a lot of people with a lot of different views on Brexit in my daily life. The vast majority of them, no matter how entrenched in their positions, are decent people. I don't usually tell them what I think, unless they ask, of course. But ask them questions about why they think what they do. And what they want to happen next and what that will do for them. And what they think they would settle for and whether they think that is fair to everyone.

We need to start talking to each other 'in the real'. And not just to those that agree with us. So long as Remainers dehumanise Leavers and vice versa, nothing will change and our democracy will continue to be in peril.

We are not America, though, and I still think we'll get through this eventually. I may be deluded, of course!

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:14

And "truth" don't forget 🤔

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:14

Hopefully when all the dust settles from this shitshow I hope the MSM is also held to account for their part in this

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 26/09/2019 17:16

But the result of the 2016 referendum was so poorly formulated that it is leading the UK to self-destruct - why on earth MUST it be respected at any and all costs, particularly given the lies and corruption on the Brexit side? Surely that is sheer stubborn stupidity for the sake of it?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 17:16

Just getting silly now Grin

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/09/2019 17:17

The referendum was advisory.
Parliament voted to be bound by it.
However, it was for Parliament to determine how to implement it.
The referendum was for some form of Brexit not a specific form of Brexit.
The referendum does not equal no deal Brexit.

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:19

Think that could be a long wait Just

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 17:21

Hopefully when all the dust settles from this shitshow I hope the MSM is also held to account for their part in this

Unlikely ... they'll just turn on those they made. You don't think Murdoch likes Trump do you ? He merely serves a purpose. Look how even Mrs T became yesterdays news while in office ...

Who knows what lurks in the safes of the editors of the dailys ?

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:22

Freedom of the press is one of the most important things to me. Despite everything.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:23

I agree tobee and I think we have anything but right now

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:28

Well that's the conundrum innit, Just?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:30

Beef up an independent regulator, but give it some teeth so it can actually do something, cant actually remember what was in Leveson 2 without looking it up

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2019 17:30

This “Brexit must be implemented” thing - I remember when this was all fields, in the early days/weeks after the referendum.

There was no plan. Brexiteers and their triumphant MN supporters didn’t only have no plan, but were simultaneously amused and aghast at Remainers expecting them to have a plan, an idea, of how the Sunlit Uplands would be. Everybody knew exactly what they’d voted for, of course, and they’d said “Make It So” and “It” would therefore naturally happen. There would be deals galore (these ones, not those ones), axing of red tapes (these ones, not those ones), economies booming (these ones, not those ones), prices of some goods dropping (these ones, not those ones), immigration changes (these ones, not those ones).

Now, of course, thanks to dear Theresa and her catchy doggerel, and a good dose of radicalisation, True BeLeavers can emphatically declare that nothing less than a No Deal Crash Out Clean Break Pure Brit Brexit is the One True Way.

Thank fuck for a catchy slogan, or several million vote-winners would still be having to say “these ones, not those ones” in public at each other at every thing that has to be decided to implement Brexit to their personal satisfaction.

MockersthefeMANist · 26/09/2019 17:30

...going back to hiding behind the sofa from the horror-show that is our current government.

We are living in a parallel universe gone to fuck. Somewhere out there, there's a happy and peaceful world where David Miliband is heading for a third term, Putin and Assad are sharing a cell at the Hague, and Trump is on "I'm A Celebrity.." locked in a coffin full of cockroaches for the fifth week running by popular demand.

Random18 · 26/09/2019 17:31

Tobee- what do you consider freedom though?

Blatant lies? Headlines inciting violence?

Story about murdered children just because the brother they never met is a sport person?

I am not actually say I disagree with you but I do think there needs to be some balance there. What we have now from the Express / Mail / Telegraph is extremely concerning and pretty much to blame for the fall of democracy in this country.

Why should a paper be free to say what it wants when our freedoms are under threat.

Emilyontmoor · 26/09/2019 17:32

Mship I do think you have to be careful about drawing conclusions from that sort of research. The relationship between the genome and environment is complicated and as I understand it, the expression of genes can be affected from generation to generation according to environment and experience eg trauma but that is not yet well understood. A talk by Crick is now an uncomfortable engagement for Scientists because on the one hand there is his achievement, on the other given a platform he will claim to have genetic evidence for highly offensive racist views. As you know in some ways genetics has raised more questions than answers because the data we now have is so overwhelming that the quest is as much to find ways to manage it for analysis as to achieve understanding. It is still very early days, and perhaps dangerous to be drawing conclusions that have implications for judging communities. Certainly as one of those people who migrated from what is now regarded as a left behind area. I think that the most likely factor was simply the educational opportunity I was given (by the 11+) which my peers did not get for various reasons. I went to university and left, some of my peers who were just as able chose to stay (or in some cases return), or indeed move to more affluent rural areas nearby.

I suspect it is more complicated than the study suggests. The peer reviews will be interesting 🤔

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:32

David Miliband?

Who? Oh that guy that couldnt even win a leadership election

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2019 17:33

Somewhere out there, there's a happy and peaceful world where David Miliband is heading for a third term

I recommend following @TheMiliverse on Twitter Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 17:33

"That's not what the A50 legislation "

Misti The A50 says nothing about how the Constitution of the leaving country should work
Neither would the ECJ

However, I saw a statement from the EU that they would not accept an extension request by Parliament

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:34

This isn't impressive:-

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49843363

mrslaughan · 26/09/2019 17:36

Anyone heard anymore of Black swan? I would love that to come out...... just very depressed with social media today - lots of "Parliament has betrayed us...."

Also I thought inciting hatred and violence was a crime?

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:36

I spent a lot of time looking at the Leveson stuff on tv. Despite everything I still fear far more the alternative to a free press.

PigeonofDoom · 26/09/2019 17:38

If memory serves, emily, it’s Watson who is the racist asshat. Crick was a more humble man.

mrslaughan · 26/09/2019 17:38

@tobee well he can just completely fuck off - want a complete cunt .....he knew what he was doing.....

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 17:38

Emilyontmoor

While I agree with every word you said, you need to bear in mind that it matters not one jot about the truth of any "science" if you can get people to believe it. And there is as much danger in the naivete of dismissing claptrap as there is believing it.

Take Black Magic, for example. Dennis Wheatley (let's not go there) used to preface his books with dire warnings about dabbling in Black Magic. Obviously they added to the frisson for readers, but they had a kernel of logic to them. If you dabble in Black Magic, you are going to meet people who do believe in it. Really believe in it. Really, really believe in it. Believe in it to such an extent that you might just find yourself upside down on a crucifix having your throat cut ....