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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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tobee · 26/09/2019 17:39

Why should a paperless say what it wants when our freedoms are under threat?
But the free press is part of those freedoms.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 17:40

If memory serves, emily, it’s Watson who is the racist asshat

My DB has met him and concurs ...

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:40

Why should a paperless say what it wants when our freedoms are under threat?
But the free press is part of those freedoms.sorry I've got some reall y weird glitch going on with my Mumsnet app writing box and I get see what I'm typing or

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:40

If journalist questioned the conservatives even half of what they rightly do to Labour I dont think things would be as bad as they are now

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:41

See what I mean? It's not deleting my previous posts either ConfusedShock

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:42

See what I mean? It's not deleting my previous posts either ConfusedShock

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
derxa · 26/09/2019 17:42

.

MockersthefeMANist · 26/09/2019 17:42

Nothing wrong with a free press provided the people who own it live here, vote here and pay their tax here.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/09/2019 17:42

BCF
If under our Constitution it is determined that a failure of a PM to properly exercise their prorogative powers gives Parliament control over a matter then arguably the EU would be in breach of Article 50 if they refused an instruction from Parliament.

Frankiestein402 · 26/09/2019 17:42

Wrt red's 1,2,3 options - HMG still have the Henry viii powers that May got through don't they?
Wouldn't have reminded them but am nervous about Boris' insistence on not complying with Benn.

Surely there has to be mileage in laughing at the 'get Brexit done' with no deal. Anyone claiming that merits the 'thick' moniker?

Random18 · 26/09/2019 17:44

tobee as i said I don't necessarily disagree.

The free press is being used by some to take away our freedoms but as you say, take that away and we are no longer a democracy.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 17:45

I've said before that I'm exasperated with how the HoC have handled this:
trying to force the PM to do something instead of replacing him

All because they fear a few day of Corbyn as PM - who could be removed whenever MPs wished - more than they fear years of No Deal

They have failed to step up and compromise when needed

(Since Corbyn is a Lexiter, I'm nowhere near as cross with him for not stepping down)

Imnotthrowingawaymyshot · 26/09/2019 17:45

To wait a long time and drag it out was I think a strategy mentioned by remainers?

So that wont wash.

Random,

Jo Swinson

"If that’s making Jeremy better, I’ll roll my sleeves up; if that’s not going to happen – and I’ve said that to him and to his staff, to their faces – the day that you are hurting us more than you are helping us, I won’t knife you in the back, I’ll knife you in the front.”

"Esther McVey claims John McDonnell 'lynching' comments put her in danger"

the remark made her life "difficult and dangerous" and said it had led to her being followed.
Mr McDonnell has repeatedly refused to apologise for the comment, which he made at a public meeting before becoming Shadow Chancellor three years ago.

Ms McVey said: "Labour always made it very personal against me because I was a Liverpudlian who dared to become a Conservative. Then I stood and after 10 years I won and they couldn’t believe that would happen in a Merseyside area. Then I was put in charge of benefits.

"When I got the lynching comments I thought - you haven’t thought about the power of your words, John McDonnell, to come into a council estate and say something like that unthinkingly.

"Maybe you’re not going to do anything John, but you don’t understand what could happen on social media and you didn’t realise what unforeseen consequences and how dangerous then my life was going to become in that area.”

She added: "He made life difficult and dangerous. He was a bully, he was inciting violence."

Ms McVey said Mr McDonnell "just keeps his head down" when she sees him in Parliament.

The Shadow Chancellor has insisted he was simply repeating was someone else had said and was not inciting violence against the Tory MP.

Just hours after Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn called for an end to personal abuse, his biggest ally John McDonnell has defended comments made about a former Tory minister being lynched and his description of her as a “stain on humanity”.

TheMShip · 26/09/2019 17:45

@Emilyontmoor yup, it's complicated. The full article is a good read. Btw, it's Watson who has racist views and is something of a parish now. Crick is long dead (2004), but was a much less problematic personality.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:49

Imnotthrowingawaymyshot

Can you give us the name of the Tory Leave MP that was murdered by the far left activist

Read less Guido it will honestly make you feel less anxious I promise

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:51

Two wrongs don't make a right Imnot. I can't stand Esther McVey but what John McDonnel said was appalling. That's been quoted several times on this thread already today.

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 17:51

Chaz Reports from Brussels are that the ECJ would find any excuse to give a wide berth to a UK Constitutional mess, where half the country disagrees with the Supremes

We only have the time 19-31 October in which all this would take place
Do we really have time for BJ to refuse, then MPs to go to the Supreme Court, then go to the ECJ ?

It's high time MPs stopped pissing around and replaced BJ
They really would be behaving badly, if they put us through a constitutional battle, all because of the bogeyman Corbyn
So childish

and they should stop expecting the EU or the ECJ to keep saving the UK's arse when its own MPs won't

tobee · 26/09/2019 17:52

I'm sorry about my posts constantly being glitchy!!!

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/09/2019 17:53

I can't stand Esther McVey but what John McDonnel said was appalling.

This and I'm hoping that after this week, PLP members will remember to be mindful of their language if not I hope they are given suitable punishment

Why can the authoritarian right never admit to any wrong they do but resort to whataboutery?

Emilyontmoor · 26/09/2019 17:57

How much worse can it get?

However this situation resolved itself politically, my feeling is that the genie is out of the bottle, a substantial proportion of the U.K. population have experienced the emotional thrill of being mobilised behind a common cause, and that mobilisation is greater now than it was at the time of the referendum. Remainers might focus on what a shitshow it has been, how there was no plan, just cake and unicorns. However that doesn’t matter because in place of the cake and unicorns the politicians and media have given them enemies, the EU and their collaborators, parliament, judges and remainers. That is why Boris is embracing the language of war, and why you get people spouting the same propaganda again and again, it isn’t about debate and argument, it is because they are fighting evil. People are not going to give up that hatred and the thrill of a common cause in a hurry. Whatever happens will be down to the enemies. I have watched perfectly reasonable people I know who have been recruited to this and now clearly feel visceral emotion about the EU and the fact that their will to leave the EU has been frustrated.

I hope that our politicians can get their act together to do their duty for the good of the country but how you repair the division I really don’t know.

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 17:57

Has anyone been watching the Lords since the Commons packed up?

They put the Commons to shame. I know at first glance it looks a tad like a care home but they are so much better than the rabble we have in the Commons.

Cross bench displeasure at the Govt re: prorogation, the way they're dealing with Brexit, the spending review (which is what they're discussing), Boris and Cummings.

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2019 17:58

As a non-party-political floating voter, I am more than happy to say that anyone who threatens violence, or fantasizes about violence, or mocks and minimizes threats of violence, is an arsehole.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 17:58

FRankie I did wonder if May might use Henry VIII for the WA
I don't see how BJ could use that

However, he could invoke Emergency Powers under the Civil Contingencies Act

Under it, he could pass or repeal bills, e.g. the Benn Bill
and iirc there are 7 days after the CCA is invoked, before Parliament can do anything

This may be part of the plan
Another is a 2nd prorogue, which could waste another 1-2 days before it is thrown out and Parliament can resume

There are probably several things BJ / Cummings will use in succession, each running down some of the time from 19 - 31 October

MPs must replace him - a PM has too many powers to use for this

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 17:59

It's strange how very little gets reported from the Lords as the second house.

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 18:01

Sorry - carrying on with my Lords love...they are incredibly sharp and put some of the dullards in the Commons to shame.

(We have some great MPs but some of them as we know are a little hard of thinking)