Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

it's not really all that surprising, I suppose. There's a drift of educated people towards urban areas, as that's where the jobs and other educated people are, and there's a correlation between intelligence and educational attainment.

Which is why despite the rhetoric (and politics) big business is looking to politics to increase immigration. Particularly into the US. Which is why it's been so painful to watch the racist Brexiteers driving Brexit, oblivious to the fact that the reality is they are going to be very disappointed.

I've still got to trawl through the tome I got dumped in response to asking around about your link. But it's grim reading for Brexiteers. Or would be if they could be bothered ....

Funnily enough there's a thread on AIBU right now which touches on some of those issues.

Chaz The EU cannot give an extension unilaterally
There legally has to be a UK PM who requests it

BJ cannot be replaced as PM by the courts
Only MPs can do that - if they can agree on an alternative

It's not about the EU being nice or awkward
It's about what is legally required

Sensible Labour: Cooper, Starmer, Benn, Miliband, V.Vaz, Malhotra, etc.

Whos definition of sensible are we going for? I think those desperately hanging on to the centrist MP's is also causing the risk of No Deal, the opposition currently has a leader and unless he resigns he would be the natural choice for the GNU

Coalition Mark II with the Lib Dems for 5 years

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Like the Lib Dems are going to do that again. They’re only just recovering from the damage of last time. You are a card @CendrillonSings.

I should say centrist right MP's of Labour not centrist in general

@BigChocFrenzy, I reckon too that BJ will chose option 3. :(

Coalition Mark II with the Lib Dems for 5 years

It would be interesting to imagine a hung parliament where the Tories are the larger party, but it's the LibDems and Labour that can command a majority and form some sort of coalition. They could even call it a Lib-Lab pact.

No idea if there's any historical precedent, but it appeals to my "naive" sense of fair play ....

Unless we can have a VoNC and find an acceptable (to the Hoc) replacement that will trigger an extension

Chaz The EU cannot* give an extension unilaterally
There legally has to be a UK PM who requests it*

That's not what the A50 legislation says (that it has to be the PM).

Jo Maugham has another case about this.

Any Jung fans in ?

BCF
I am not sure it is a straightforward as there has to be a uk Prime Minister. We are talking about the exercise of a prerogative power that cannot be used in a way that would amend or repeal an existing statute. Failure to exercise that power as required by the Benn Act would have the effect of nullifying that Statute. That may well bring it back to the realms of Parliament (IIRC this was part of the argument in the first Millar case)

Define an awful human being. Also so what. Awful human beings get things done. History not you defines awful human beings. Alexander the Great was awful. It just depends on which side you are on and who writes the books.

I suspect most of the notable figures in human history were awful human beings.

Turning it round who is the nicest human being currently available we could put in charge of brexit. There has to be someone half decent out there.

Link to the Ellie Cooper thread referenced above.

Well worth a read.

twitter.com/ellieelizaa/status/1177202032823939072?s=21

After all the Brexiteer talk about “seeing the whites of their eyes” at the last minute when faced with a no deal Brexit and who blinks first, it turns out they were right. It is just a Parliament rather than the EU that they are facing off against.

If Johnson actually breaks the law and refuses to ask for an extension I think those on the Opposition benches who are not behind s GNU will blink and appoint Margaret Beckett PM.

I find it interesting that Farage is distancing himself from Johnson.
I am wondering if the Tories will actually win the next GE as everyone fears.

• If Johnson cannot force us to crash out on the 31st, the polls have indicated a movement of the Leave base back to the Brexit Party.

• At the same time, he has alienated or disgusted a lot of "natural" One-Nation Tories. I don't think the upswing to the Lib Dems is just from Labour.

• He has also kicked 20 MPs from his own party who could stand as independents, splitting the vote yet further.

I personally think he will blame everyone and stand down.

The attack on Jess Phillips’ office sounds horrendous. How much worse will this get?

How much worse will this get?

Much worse id imagine, after all the PM espouses their views could you feel more empowered after having to hide your real opinions for years because 'political correctness gone mad' and now you can open share outside of your normal bubble (not you obvs AH)

This is only the beginning. A lot of hatred is being spread on social media. The threads on MN as one example seem most inappropriate. They don’t have the means of controlling the content other than shutting them down which I would strongly advocate.

Much worse id imagine, after all the PM espouses their views could you feel more empowered after having to hide your real opinions for years because 'political correctness gone mad' and now you can open share outside of your normal bubble (not you obvs AH)

Bombs, bullets, and bully beef ?

What you should be doing is focussing on your commitment to democracy...

Glad to hear it!

Mps pulling every trick out of the bag, twisting truth into lies, and colluding with the the eu to subvert the vote that 17 million took in good faith, trying to stop that vote.

I'm really pleased to see that these threads, which some have called a hollow echo chamber are actually focusing on the bigger picture.

What is at steak here. Democracy and truth itself.
A vote which must be carried out.

A vote which must be carried out.

But why ? Why over 3 years on ? Why when a general election failed to return a single party able to carry it out ?

Even David Davies - one time Minster for Brexit said that a democracy that can't change it's mind is no longer a democracy.

The problem with referendums and parliamentary democracy is it's a little like trying to get a shop in Cornwall to accept a Scottish fiver. You can't force them to.

Mps pulling every trick out of the bag, twisting truth into lies, and colluding with the the eu to subvert the vote that 17 million took in good faith, trying to stop that vote.

What you should be doing is focussing on your commitment to democracy...

On the circularity of left and right wing authoritarian rule see China. The western perception is that Mao was a Communist dictator who staged a revolution and defeated a right wing would be dictator Chiang Kai Shek. But both claimed to be the heirs of Sun Yat Sen the first President after the fall of the Qing dynasty who mapped out a path for China based on nationalism, democracy and a just society. The perspective of many historians of China is that rather than revolution it was just standard dynastic change, Mao defeated Chiang to become effectively another Emperor with much in common with First Emperor in terms of creating a unified China and the style of his rule. He and all the subsequent leaders even as they moved to an extreme deregulated form of the market economy - capitalism with Chinese characteristics - exploit the mandate of a traditional sage Confucian Emperor. Xi is no different.

Cummings also lived in Russia for three years.