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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

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BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 10:38

poster00 GrinGrin You may need more 🍫🍫 to soothe your brain

To be serious:
Even when Major was in office and carrying out some policies I disagreed with,
I always felt he was a decent bloke and that if there was ever a real crisis, then I could trust him to act sensibly and do his best for the country rather than just his party.

He indeed faced down the hard right - his "bastards" - at a crucial time when they tried to take over policy

I have always found that I can like and trust a few politicians of any parties like this.
It doesn't mean I agree with their policies,
just that imo they are decent human beings with a sense of duty and reasonable competence

In the current "hair on fire" I also accept being on the same side - temporarily - as people whom I don't even respect like this
and we'll part company the minute the flames have been doused

dontcallmelen · 16/09/2019 10:44

PMK, thanks Red & everyone else.
Yy DGR John Major, I always felt that he was a decent man.
born get the jacket, it will make you happy.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 10:47

red War with Iran ?

I posted upthread about sbare-rattling towards China: US jets on a UK aircraft carrier - a clusterfuck waiting to happen

He's arrogantly risking restarting the Troubles too

How many wars can one cartoon PM blunder into ? Hmm😱

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 11:03

Peter Foster@pmdfoster

Costly publicity stunt.

Always sensible to keep in with the neighbours when you're planning a divorce in which you have to live, in perpetuity, in the next door house.


Jennifer Rankin@JenniferMerode

No British minister or official will be at today's EU council, in line with empty chair policy.

Council will discuss rule of law in Hungary and Poland, plus EU summit agenda (non Brexit).

Since 1 September, UK only attending meetings of “significant national interest".

< presumably BJ expects 27 heads of govt to attend the October EUCO where he will still be demanding cake
What if they all decided to stay away in exasperation ? No, they're adults >

MockersthefeMANist · 16/09/2019 11:03

Also "under God" ????? Whatever happened to separation of Church and State?

The McCarthyites added that in the 1950s because to stop cahmyunizm. See also "In God We Trust" on the money.

The Oath of Allegiance is real. It happens every day. There really is a flag in every 'tutor-group' classroom. Saying the oath is not compulsory, and attitudes to it vary regionally.

It has its roots in the development of the US Public (state) school system. It was decided that foreign migrant adults would always think of the old country as 'home,' but their kids could be made into Americans.

Over here, I hope there'd be outrage: How very dare you want me to swear an oath. How very dare you suggest my allegiance is in question. This is my fucking country.

(Is the gist of what us punky kids woud've said, back in the day.)

Ohflippineck · 16/09/2019 11:05

Sad resignation here, bound to come out in Government’s favour.

tobee · 16/09/2019 11:15

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy !

Mark Ruffalo 😍😍😍

prettybird · 16/09/2019 11:24

Loved the way that Barnier didn't let BJ-Cummings get away with a cursory handshake and brush past him: he held on to his hand and even side stepped in front of him, very courteously Wink, to make a point of saying something to him.

Sky New have it on repeat to point it out Grin

DGRossetti · 16/09/2019 12:06

Anyway you might like this joke which is going the rounds today:

"Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says, I'll have a pint of beer please.
The barman pours a pint, then throws it over Farage.

'What did you do that for?' says Farage, drenched to the skin.

'You asked for something, but didn't specify how you wanted it delivered'

'But I still want a pint - this time in a glass!'

'Sorry, you can't refine the question and have a second vote'

Socksontheradiator · 16/09/2019 12:12

Following as always. Thanks.

prettybird · 16/09/2019 12:17

Love it DGR Grin

JeSuisPoulet · 16/09/2019 12:18

Threads whizzing by!
Agree we seem to be blindly provoking a number of countries atm - I also saw our favour to US by taking their planes on our boat earlier. Also agree re fuel - such interesting timing... Hmm

Maybe a war is what BoZoCum will use to "unite the people" Sad

Peregrina · 16/09/2019 12:20

God help us - the true BeLeavers will come rushing in and tell us that they voted for a war with Iran.

RedToothBrush · 16/09/2019 12:50

Rob Powell @robpowellnews
NEW: PM's Official Spokesperson v firm that, if a deal is struck, the govt will not be extending the implementation period past Dec 2020. That gives 14 months to get the Irish border solution in place, or the UK falls into whatever is left of the backstop.

Your reminder that the technology won't be ready by Dec 2020.

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prettybird · 16/09/2019 12:53

What do you mean, it doesn't exist yet? Wink

I thought it was just the EU being mean and refusing to implement the brilliant new technology that hasn't been invented yet to thwart BJ-Cummings' cunning plan Grin

RedToothBrush · 16/09/2019 12:57

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
Timetable for Brexit appeals at @UKSupremeCourt this week. Tomorrow: counsel for the two appellants (Gina Miller; Advocate General for Scotland, representing UK government). Wednesday: counsel for respondents (@BorisJohnson and @joannaccherry). Thursday: interveners and replies.

Given the @UKSupremeCourt timetable for the Brexit appeals hearings, it’s possible the court could announce its decision (with reasons to follow) on Friday. I think next week is more likely, though.

Tick tick tick

Rob Powell @robpowellnews
MORE: No10 also clear that, if a deal is struck in the next month, there will be no technical extension beyond Oct 31 to pass the required legislation: "if we are able to secure a deal, the British public would expect parliament to find a way of delivering that deal by Oct 31".

Cos thats sensible if we are serious about a deal.

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RedToothBrush · 16/09/2019 13:00

David AllenGreen@davidallengreen
One important point about the prorogation case

If the prorogation is quashed or declared unlawful...

...all that in effect happens is that it is remitted back to government who can then seek to make the same decision again but with better reasons/evidence

Nature of public law

Indeed, with better reasons and evidence, the government could have made this prorogation far more litigation-proof

It was just that Johnson and Cummings could not even manage to abuse the constitution competently

What will follow any court decision that current prorogation is unlawful will be more to do with politics than law

Will Johnson and Cummings feel politically able to give it another shot?

Depends on if judgment is damning, but also on the politics and optics of trying again

The Supreme Court cannot and will not remove the prerogative power

Not its role

The court can, however, insist that certain conditions be met in future

But even if strict conditions are set, still will be up to Johnson to consider trying again

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DuchessDumbarton · 16/09/2019 13:03

BigChocFrenzy I agree with what you say about trustable politicians.

I've watched speeches from both Blair and Major in the past few weeks- and while I have problems with decisions that both of them have made, ultimately, I felt that they were working (in some way) for the common good.

It's the same on this side of the Irish Sea- I have big problems with many decisions that Bertie Ahern made, but he pushed the GFA over the line. He made significant personal sacrifices for it, including leaving his mother's funeral to travel to the talks at a significant stage.

Cant say that the current British leadership inspires any such regard

DGRossetti · 16/09/2019 13:13

Although they don't actually know what the rules are yet ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/16/home_office_a_million_texts_passport_brexit/

The UK Home Office will send a million text messages reminding people that the rules for travelling to the European Union will change in the event of a no-deal Brexit on 31 October.

DGRossetti · 16/09/2019 13:15

(pressed send too soon)

I wonder if that will alert the more resistant members of the population (maybe the 20% that don't have net access ?) that Something Is Afoot ?

www.neowin.net/news/uk-new-survey-finds-a-fifth-of-brits-do-not-use-the-internet/

prettybird · 16/09/2019 13:29

Juncker after meeting Johnson: UK yet to present solutions to backstop (Sky news).

I'm sooooo surprised Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 13:39

September General Affairs Council meeting today

  • UK decided not to attend any EU meetings until October EUCO  Tony Connelly✔@tconnellyRTE

Here’s what the Austrian Europe Minister @SchallenbergA said:

If PM Johnson doesn’t show up with new proposals when he meets Juncker, honestly for us, for the EU,
there is no other option than a hard Brexit

The Brits have to tell us what they need in order to convince the HoC

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 13:39

So no new proposals.
Big surprise
Not looking good, then

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 13:43

Panic buying could see Britons run out of toilet roll and nappies, Whitehall insiders warn

No Deal Preppers: stock up on loo paper !

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/16/panic-buying-could-see-britons-run-toilet-roll-nappies-whitehall/

No-deal Brexit planners fear panic buying could cause shortages of toilet roll and disposable nappies despite reassurances from supermarket bosses,
Whitehall insiders have told The Telegraph.

Two senior sources with first-hand knowledge of the Government’s no-deal planning said short supplies of such essentials are viewed as a genuine prospect if consumers take fright at the lack of other goodss^.

They added that the government was caught in a trap between being honest to enable people to prepare
and being too frank and triggering unnecessary panic.

“If there was one item I would stockpile, it would be toilet paper,”
said one senior source.
“If people see empty shelves for fruit and veg, the risk...

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 13:46

(Official) Statement by the European Commission following the working lunch between President Jean-Claude Juncker and Prime Minister Boris Johnson

https://europa.eu/rapid/press-releaseIP-19-55799_en.htm

President Juncker recalled that it is the UK's responsibility to come forward with legally operational solutions that are compatible with the Withdrawal Agreement.

President Juncker underlined the Commission's continued willingness and openness to examine whether such proposals meet the objectives of the backstop.
Such proposals have not yet been made.

The Commission will remain available to work 24/7.