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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

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Peregrina · 16/09/2019 08:53

Maybe the Opposition parties should hold a 'Temporary PM' election, and all likely candidates can put their hats in the ring? It won't necessarily be a certainty for Corbyn because I assume that a lot of Labour MPs are still Blairites, so might well vote for Clarke.

Then get their two year extension with whoever, happily avoiding calls for a GE.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 16/09/2019 09:16

Maybe the Opposition parties should hold a 'Temporary PM' election, and all likely candidates can put their hats in the ring?

Why?

placemats · 16/09/2019 09:22

There is only one way to get out of this. It's not another election. It's not an extension. It's has to be another referendum.

Johnson and co have painted themselves into a corner. That would be the EU position on this shit show.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 16/09/2019 09:27

Ok, so we have another Referendum - we end up back with Leave. Then what?

placemats · 16/09/2019 09:28

I remember the debates between Cameron and Miliband one to one.

This from The Guardian on the debate regarding the EU referendum. Miliband nails it. Cameron was frightened by the ERG in his party.

Yes, Cameron can fuck off.

www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2013/jan/23/cameron-miliband-eu-referendum-video

placemats · 16/09/2019 09:29

What sort of reply is that? Badkitten

Right back at you!

placemats · 16/09/2019 09:31

So we have a referendum and it's decidedly Remain.

What then?

Peregrina · 16/09/2019 09:32

Why?

To stop the squabbling about who should be temporary PM. Have one name established which they could put forward as soon as a VoNC is called.

Those of you who know Johnson from his London Mayor days - did he ever appear to change his mind, or did he just walk away from problems? Thinking here about his illegal water cannon, the garden bridge, the new routemaster buses. Were any of his bright ideas ever cancelled by him?

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/09/2019 09:35

Maybe the Opposition parties should hold a 'Temporary PM' election, and all likely candidates can put their hats in the ring? It won't necessarily be a certainty for Corbyn because I assume that a lot of Labour MPs are still Blairites, so might well vote for Clarke.
Maybe that's not a bad plan. I suspect Keir Starmer would go down better with a lot of the opposition too. Would help Corbyn too in some respects for later down the line, keeps his hands clean of the fiasco but he can take the glory of not letting ego get in the way of solving a crisis.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/09/2019 09:37

Were any of his bright ideas ever cancelled by him?
I'm not sure he cancelled any, but many were certainly reined in by the necessary departments dealing with it. But then as MoL you can bring in outside people into appropriate roles and delegate, not so easy as PM when your talent pool is somewhat limited.

cherin · 16/09/2019 09:39

The only think I remember of BJ mayoral stint is that he basically promoted/embraced a policy of complete relaxation when it came to converting building into resi. Preferably uber posh resi. And the affordable housing percentage has always been a myth.
I never paid any attention to what he said, so I can’t comment on that. But what he did is support private developers and help pushing prices up for both purchase and rent

fedup21 · 16/09/2019 09:42

The Queen herself?

I simply can’t see the queen interfering in politics-their position when it comes to being in charge is pretty shaky anyway, isn’t it? She doesn’t control the police, the army and BJ is supposed to be the one advising her. If she goes against him-she’s going out on a massive limb-who would ‘advise’ her what to do next?

If she is seen to be blocking a Brexit that ‘the people’ have voted for, she is leaving herself and the monarchy wide open to being a target of the people. I would imagine she is very worried of retaliation and will be treading very carefully.

TatianaLarina · 16/09/2019 09:48
Gin
placemats · 16/09/2019 09:49

Johnson's mayoral time was deemed a disaster in terms of getting things done.

His bikes?

His bridge?

Both costly.

Foreign secretary position deemed a disaster.

And yet, and yet, he appeals to the extremists in the Tory Party.

I say eat yourself up Johnson, your almost there.

placemats · 16/09/2019 09:52

And before anyone says where is the credible opposition?

Anything is credible against the loser Johnson, who was willing but not able to take on the poison chalice.

His only saving grace is a golden upland unicorn and we all know that fairy tales don't equate to real life.

DGRossetti · 16/09/2019 09:57

The Queen herself?

One thing we have learned these past few weeks is that when "the Queen" does something "Queenie" in the constitution, she actually does it as a cipher of "the Government". Meaning there is no independent pillar of our constitution to prevent tyranny.

In other countries with a bicameral system predicated upon the separation of powers the head of state is usually elected, and so has the power to say "fuck off" (e.g. POTUS) if they don't agree.

As far as our political system is concerned, the Queen has been revealed to be the worlds most expensive rubber stamp. Which is not what I - and successive generations who disliked the idea of a Monarch - have been sold over the years.

Now is not the time, obviously, unless we do descend into end of days. But after this shitshow has been sorted one way or another, I think I shall eke out my final few years as a full on Republican anti-monarchist.

cherin · 16/09/2019 10:02

The problem is that even if there really was w sensible deal in the making (by miracle, or because Sabine from the EU basically writes it for him, out of pity) he’d behave like a stupid child and spin it as if it was his glorious effort and the EU chickened out (him being the hulk and all that...)
I can’t trust him not to piss them massively the second after having agreed something.
So with him as PM really the EU hasn’t got that incentive to help; even if it’s a common interest in not letting us get out with no deal

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/09/2019 10:05

His bikes?
Something that slightly irritates me with the entire Boris Bikes things is that it was actually started from Ken Livingston's time as Mayor. And part of the excess cost was because when they went on trial the bikes that were meant to be used (sourced and contracted under Ken - who often lambasts Johnson for changing them) was because they couldn't cope with the British Weather. Lead to a delay and more expensive contract being taken out.

Not that I wish to defend Johnson at all, it's more an irk that they're known as his scheme!

DGRossetti · 16/09/2019 10:11

(I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.)

All sounds a bit North Korea to me Hmm

Also "under God" ????? Whatever happened to separation of Church and State ?

And Brexiteers seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the US flag is still quartered with the Union flag.

As we found with the Nazis, flags and symbols are powerful tools in the armoury of those that would rule.

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy
DGRossetti · 16/09/2019 10:13

Could Johnson Moonwalk be entering parlance ?

seen elsewhere:

"Bit of a Johnson moonwalk (which is going backwards whilst looking like you're going forward)."

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 16/09/2019 10:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cherin · 16/09/2019 10:20

DG, the USA are one of the most religious countries you’ll see. You can have different gods. But I don’t think an open atheist will ever become president, at least not in my lifetime.
They do still swear on the Bible (presidents and officials etc).
It’s intended as a “general god concept”, I suppose
But they’d never elect a Robespierre :-))

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 10:23

tobee ShockShock Best wishes for your root canal 💐

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 10:28

born The jacket is stockpiling joy - there may be a shortage of that later

Peregrina · 16/09/2019 10:32

DGR - almost a case of been there, done that. I give you the flag of Hawaii:

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy
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