Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
prettybird · 17/09/2019 17:38

Congratulations placemats WineThanks

Peregrina · 17/09/2019 17:47

Have the Judges picked up on the response to the anti-Prorogation petition?

Prorogation is a prerogative Act of the Crown, exercised on the advice of Ministers. We must respect the referendum result and the UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances

Why, if this is all a matter of routine, does Brexit need to be brought into it?

RedToothBrush · 17/09/2019 17:51

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/emily-owen-labour-candidate-rape-drugged-far-right-attack-a9108846.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1568733606
Labour candidate ‘drugged and raped in politically motivated attack’
‘No woman should face such abuse,’ says party spokesperson

OP posts:
Peregrina · 17/09/2019 18:01

I kind of feel sorry for the Liberal Democrats at the moment. However, I don't agree with revoking Article 50. I think a new referendum is required before that happens.

Well come on now - this would only happen if they were to be able to form a Government, and if they really did manage to get their 320 seats it would be so completely unprecedented, that they could claim to have a mandate to do this.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 18:15

Well done, placemats
Congratulations on your new job 💐

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 18:18

Labour candidate ‘drugged and raped in politically motivated attack’ ShockShock

Absolutely horrifying the danger & threats that women of the centre & left face, from the far right

prettybird · 17/09/2019 18:22

The LibDems policy seems to be to make themselves into a single issue party for the next GE in order to get a legitimate mandate for Revoke.

I admire their courage in doing so - but I can anticipate hypocritical complaints that no one is then looking at the rest of their policies Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 18:25

"I don't agree with revoking Article 50. I think a new referendum is required before that happens."

imo a party winning a GE has a sufficient mandate to resolve Brexit however the party manifesto says,
whether that be Revoke, WA & soft Brexit, No Deal or whatever - without a PV

Also, a referendum in June 2016 would be over-ridden by a GE that would be 3.5 years or more later
Especially since constitutionally we have a Parliamentary democracy, not one controlled by plebiscites on individual policies.

The LDems are not going to win a majority, but if Labour won also on a Revoke manifesto, then they should do so without worsening the political divide by a PV campaign

ListeningQuietly · 17/09/2019 18:28

If the LibDems manage to get a clear majority with Bollocks to Brexit as their key manifesto point, good on them.

THe fact is that if they did that and then were free to focus on the issues that really matter
GOOD

DGRossetti · 17/09/2019 18:29

Do LibDems still support decriminalising/legalising drugs ?

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 18:44

Thank you DeRigueurMortis for your surmising. So it was a double bluff for Corbyn after all! And we were amazed he didn't fall into the "trap"? I know the idea of CumFace as some kind of intelligent MP whisperer is OTT for some, but he does seem to have planned ahead for this. I did wonder why JC kept on banging on about an election months before the situation arose - when it wasn't even on the cards. I seriously think there is a mole in Labour. This was all planned in too much detail not to have prep work.

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 18:45

Well done placemats trying to keep up!

TheABC · 17/09/2019 18:50

A Lib Dem majority is definitely in Unicorn Land, unless the polls are staggeringly wrong.

I personally think we are close to End-Game Brexit now, given Brussels exasperation and Johnson's surprising talent at pissing off Parliament.

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 18:56

IMO The key issue LD need to keep repeating is what kind of democracy we want to live in; one where parliament is sovereign or when people override parliament/MP's. The main issue as a pre-cursor to think (which weirdly people don't challenge) is the severe effects of austerity. As well as the impacts of Blair ignoring the marches on the war. If those hadn't happened, would John Major have had the same lack of trust in Parliament to see this through?

thecatfromjapan · 17/09/2019 18:57

Well done, Placemats. 💐

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 18:57

FT: Documents show most vehicles set to be turned away for wrong paperwork before reaching dockside

https://amp.ft.com/content/0a37d14c-d887-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17?

The UK government has been accused of playing down the potential disruption to ports other than those closest to France in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

In Liverpool, Holyhead and Portsmouth about two-thirds of vehicles would not be allowed into the port in the aftermath of an abrupt exit from the EU, according to the papers marked “official sensitive”.

One person familiar with the matter said
queues at ports such as Portsmouth would only remain manageable because so many vehicles would be turned away.

“Queues to get through customs in ports outside of Kent will be OK only if you assume that traffic flows will be significantly reduced before vehicles get to the port.....

Yellowhammer didn’t give us the full picture...one could say it was seriously misleading.”

One document sets out the volume of vehicles that will be allowed into the ports compared to usual, which it calls the flow rate.

“One hundred per cent of non-compliant vehicles will be turned away,
which means the resulting flow rate is 29 per cent at Holyhead, Heysham and Liverpool
and 32 per cent at Portsmouth.”
....
Operation Yellowhammer does spell out the potential impact to Dover if the French impose EU mandatory controls on day one after a no-deal Brexit.

The document says that the number of vehicles could fall to 40-60 per cent of current levels for up to three months, with queues in Kent of up to two-and-a-half days in “a reasonable worst-case scenario”.

However another sensitive document from the DfT spells out that tailbacks outside Dover could stretch to around 150km.

“Queues could reach a peak of 8,500 vehicles, a two-day maximum delay and a 1.5 day average delay,” ....

With a typical articulated lorry being about 16.5m long,
a queue of 8,500 such vehicles would stretch for some 150km, the distance from Dover to Guildford in Surrey.

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 19:01

Something that came across very clearly in the R4 link I linked to upthread with the BxP women was that people didn't trust Parliament and the only reason they "got interested" in politics was that democracy was "threatened" (largely IMO from the ref vote not being held, but imagine if you marched agaisnt the war and then didn't vote Tory austerity). Trouble is that BxP not having policies would eventually fall foul of the same, difference is the SM spin machine is in their corner...how long can that last is what I would be asking as a leader of that party - although if UKIP/BxP is anything to go by they will just change name, shed the last image and move on with fresh blood of "outraged" to form the next authoritarian/victimised party. I can see THAT going for some time to come, whilst not much gets done about the root causes. A bit like Britain's Got Talent for MP's Sad

placemats · 17/09/2019 19:06

That's an horrific case RTB. I've been watching Unbelievable on Netflix and I'm just fired up about women not being taken seriously regarding rape cases, because it means the man goes on and rapes others. Unbelievable is a true story and you can read this here:

www.themarshallproject.org/2015/12/16/an-unbelievable-story-of-rape

Thanks for all the congrats Cake

I'm cautiously optimistic about this decision.

But I don't own chickens.

Love the recipe pretty

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 19:07

David Allen Green: How to protect the UK constitution from Johnson and Cummings

and every future would-be tinpot dictator

However, DAG doesn't yet go as far as my hobby-horse:
to codify and stop relying on gentlemen's agreements to protect us from non-gentlemen in power

https://www.ft.com/content/b6791632-d85a-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

Conventions disregarded by the government should be placed on a sound legal footing

The constitution of the UK had, until recently, seemed to be a robust old thing.
Governments came and went but the primary arrangements of the British state remained in place.
The Queen (or King) was sovereign, parliament was supreme, judges judged and ministers decided.
One had to go back to the 1680s for any real constitutional excitement, at least in England.

There are two main reasons why, until now, the British constitution has endured.^

First, there is little constitutional law.
Instead, a great deal of the practical functioning of the UK state depends on convention.

There are scores of conventions, from the prime minister being chair of the cabinet and cabinet collective responsibility
to the House of Lords not blocking manifesto commitments
and judges not participating in political controversies.
The ultimate political balance between the UK government and the devolved assemblies also rests on convention.

These rules of practice may be recognised in statutes and in the courts, but they are rules of practice with no legal force.

One cannot get an injunction to enforce a convention
and nor can one obtain a remedy if the convention is breached.

Second, the little constitutional law that exists is subject to self-restraint.

The royal prerogative gives legal effect to certain decisions by the prime minister,
but the expectation is that the power will not be abused,
and in turn the UK courts will not intervene.

The courts will also not make orders (or “develop” the law) where the issue is essentially political not legal, even if there is an arguable legal case.
Parliament has ultimate legislative power but will tend to not legislate so as to constrain the executive or the courts from fulfilling their constitutional roles.

However, such a constitution is robust only in certain climates and with certain types of weather.
A change of environment will expose its fragility.
What once seemed solid can suddenly look precarious.

This is what has now happened in the UK.
The new prime minister Boris Johnson and his principal adviser Dominic Cummings care nothing for the conventions and customs that have hitherto curbed executive power.

And the legal powers of the prerogative are there for the taking.

It is a startling stance for the executive to adopt,
though it can be explained in terms of both parliamentary arithmetic and the legal box in which parliament has placed the executive with Brexit.
....
Some supporters of the prime minister will be delighted at his strident approach.
But wiser heads will realise the dangers.

The ability of the UK state to function requires harmony between its executive, legislative and judicial functions.
Any tensions need to be resolved before they harden into contradictions.

Messrs Johnson and Cummings will be gone one day, but the wreckage may still be there.

Oakenbeach · 17/09/2019 19:15

Prorogation is a prerogative Act of the Crown, exercised on the advice of Ministers. We must respect the referendum result and the UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances

Surely this is a massive own goal! Linking them like this confirms (if confirmation were needed) that their stated reason prorogation was spurious!

prettybird · 17/09/2019 19:15

I've also made gluten free chocolate chip cookies (using my variation of the MN chocolate chip cookies: my variant being always make at least double, no nuts and double the amount of chocolate - a mix of white, dark and milk Wink), using Doves gluten free self raising flour (which I'd already bought for the chocolate Jaffa cake Wink)

They need to be baked on baking parchment/silicon sheets and then left to cool and peeled off as they're quite fragile. Ds' flat mate really enjoyed them. Personally I thought they weren't as good as my "normal" cookies as they were a bit dry and didn't have that wee bit of chewiness in the middle that good choc chip cookies should have.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 19:23

My fav Rhine cafe is nearby, run by a Master Patisserie chef
He has an assortment of fresh cakes, but always his rademark gluten-free choocolate
It is phenomenal in taste & texture, very popular among those of us with no worries about gluten

Have you tried making a tart, pretty ?
Might avoid the dryness issue

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 19:24

his trademark gluten-free choocolate tart

prettybird · 17/09/2019 19:36

I was using gluten free chocolate, so that wasn't the issue - it was definitely the flour. I hadn't added extra Xanthan gum which his flatmate said his stepdad sometimes in recipes used to address the dryness problem (iirc, the Doves gluten free flour already has some in it but maybe for some recipes it needs more).