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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

OP posts:
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placemats · 17/09/2019 16:42

During the morning of today’s supreme court hearing, the live stream on the court’s website was accessed 4.4m times - with 2.8m stream requests being logged in the hour before the 1pm break for lunch, the Press Association reports. Typically, the live streaming service is accessed about 20,000 times a month.

This latest from the Guardian live feed stream. I watched some but had to go out. On foot. My car, pranged in a car park is being fixed. I'll get it back Thursday! My panic on this is over.

I'm not surprised that Johnson's ratings are up with Tory voters, those who are left. I think it's down to Buyer's Remorse.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer%27s_remorse

On the bright side, I've just signed the contract for my new post, a civil service position and I'm now having a celebratory glass of wine - it's five o'clock somewhere in the world!

DeRigueurMortis · 17/09/2019 16:43

Congratulations Placemats Wine

placemats · 17/09/2019 16:44

Smile Perking

0lga · 17/09/2019 16:44

Congratulations Placemats. Is it a politically restricted post ?

placemats · 17/09/2019 16:44

Thank you Wine

placemats · 17/09/2019 16:45

No, thankfully!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/09/2019 16:49

Congrats Placemats

DeRigueurMortis · 17/09/2019 16:51

Chaz I'm not sure that what was or wasn't guaranteed is relevant.

The point Keen is making is that the HoC had an opportunity and didn't take it.

I agree with you btw Smileand think the HoC focusing on the Benn Bill was "right at the time" - but that doesn't negate the point that they could have acted differently.

The Fire Brigade Bill does counter that wrt a failure of parliament to act does not mean the courts should not intervene - but it's a very different set of circumstances and who knows if the Judges will see this as a precedent in this case.

ListeningQuietly · 17/09/2019 16:52

Well done placemats

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/09/2019 16:59

I suppose my question is
What could Parliament have done to stop Prorogation?

placemats · 17/09/2019 17:01

I kind of feel sorry for the Liberal Democrats at the moment. However, I don't agree with revoking Article 50. I think a new referendum is required before that happens.

Thanks all!

DeRigueurMortis · 17/09/2019 17:01

Used the time they did to pass the Benn Bill to either call a VONC or pass legislation preventing prorogation Chaz.

FannyBiggetywitch · 17/09/2019 17:03

Congrats placemats Wine

0lga · 17/09/2019 17:03

@placemats

Just checking Grin.

PerkingFaintly · 17/09/2019 17:04

Beg your pardon, earlier mention of Fire Brigades case was by Chaz, not BigChoc.

CrunchyCarrot · 17/09/2019 17:10

Congrats, placemats !

Basilpots · 17/09/2019 17:15

@placematsSmile
Good news on here for once.

Calyx72 · 17/09/2019 17:16

Perking "Can you imagine the field day that fine legal reporter, Charles Dickens Esq, would be having with these names?

Pannick, who isn't.

Vs Keen, who doesn't seem to be."

I love this Smile

Congratulations Placemats Wine

I had the the Sky and then Guardian live feeds on this afternoon and I am another who is impressed by Lady Hale and her incisive questions. I quite enjoyed the afternoon, won't be able to listen as back at work for the rest of the week. No idea what will happen yet but that's my usual state.

Again thanks to all on these threads which I would know nothing at all without them.

fedup21 · 17/09/2019 17:19

If BJ ‘wins’ this, doesn’t that give him carte blanche to do wherever he wants in future??

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2019 17:26

Well done Placemats!

Peregrina · 17/09/2019 17:27

I was out with a group today, mixed Leavers and Remainers, and the talk turned to the Court action. The concensus was that we are fed up with Brexit, and that there are enough things which need fixing in this country.

If we are a typical group then I would imagine that most of the country thinks the same, which makes me thing there won't be riots if Brexit doesn't happen. There will be if food and medicine shortages happen.

Then we discussed trying Boris Johnson for treason.

PerkingFaintly · 17/09/2019 17:30

Mega congrats, placemats. Brew

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 17:31

The Justices spent some time focussing on - I think, I was working at the same time - the Northern Ireland Bill which has to be laid by 9 October, but now can't be because of the prorogation. (It may be another Bill, but there was a great deal of discussion between Keen and 2-3 of the Justices about the fact this now won't happen because of the prorogation.)

Pannick was asked how many / which Bills had fallen by the wayside and hadn't been carried over (he had to find out and let them know).

The Justices seem very keen (ha!) on finding out what they've not been able to get done because of the prorogation.

Keen argued that prorogation was clearly anticipated at the time of the NI Bill, so Parliament should've made provisions to legislate against proroguing / an extended proroguing at that point. More than one of the Justices asked about the length of the prorogation and why that long. One of the female Justices queried whether Parliament - even if they anticipated 'a' prorogation - anticipated a 5 week one.

The elephant in the room when Keen referred to legislating against prorogation was the very public fact that BoZo keeps banging on about how he's not going to adhere to the Benn Bill, so why would he have adhered to that legislation. (Though potentially HMQ would've refused in that instance? I don't know.)

It was really quite fascinating.

derxa · 17/09/2019 17:34

.

prettybird · 17/09/2019 17:36

@olga

Here is the recipe for the gluten free Chocolate Jaffa Cake

Ingredients
140g soft butter
200g self raising flour (doves gluten free)
200g caster sugar (original recipe said golden but ordinary is fine)
3 large eggs
6tbsp milk
Zest of 2 oranges
I add a wee bit extra orange juice or orange essence.

Drizzle
3tbsp orange juice (or the juice from the 2 oranges)
50g caster sugar
Up to 100g dark chocolate

Method
Fan oven 160C
Put all ingredients into bowl and mix for 3-5 mins, untill light and fluffy.
Pour into a lined, buttered loaf tin and level the top
Bake in oven for 40-50 mins until golden brown and firm to touch.

Heat orange juice and sugar until dissolved/reduced a bit, spoon liquid over the cake (you can spike the cake w bit with a skewer before to help it infuse), remove from tin after a few minutes and cool on a rack.

Once cool, melt the dark chocolate (I just melt it in the microwave) and drizzle generously over the cake.

Enjoy! Cake

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