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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

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RedToothBrush · 17/09/2019 08:04

I thought the Duchy of Lancaster was the second in command of government after the PM in the absence of a formal deputy PM role.

That's currently Gove BTW.

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RedToothBrush · 17/09/2019 08:06

Sorry got the title wrong

Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 08:06

At least Gove is far more intelligent & knowledgeable than Raab
(so is the tree by my window)

I suppose we have to overlook the Garius revelations that he is an Eldrich Horror

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 08:11

I do think BoZo likes to be liked. Wondering if having the country boo him and pelt him with soft play balls has had the effect of numbing the upcoming disaster for him? Somewhere deep down he is probably convincing himself we deserve whatever we get for not rejoicing Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 08:12

red Context of my question was BJ resigning to avoid asking for an extension
Hence of course all the Cabinet would also refuse
Hence he and they would all refuse to be a caretaker PM and govt - who would still be legally bound to rquest extension

Once again showing we need a codified Constitution that actually covers the main eventualities, instead of relying on gentlemanly conventions in the absence of gentlemen or ladies in power.

e.g. the USA has a list of which officers take over, in line of Succession - VP, Secretary of state, Speaker ......

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 08:13

I just did a quick Google and saw that Raab was described as Deputy. Gove would possibly be better (in that chlamydia is marginally better than syphilis), but given his volte face re no deal, he's not exactly a great choice, is he?

Sostenueto · 17/09/2019 08:15

I have no expectations at all. With all the mess lately I am just sitting back waiting to see what shit lands on me from the fan!

RedToothBrush · 17/09/2019 08:16

The other thing is when the PM resigns, then other ministers remain as ministers until replaced. So we still have a Cabinet and government just not a leader to it.

Looking up what the job role of the chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is, wiki says the following :

In addition to administering the estates and rents of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Chancellor is also a member of the cabinet and advises the Prime Minister on the development and implementation of government policy.[11] In addition, the Chancellor is responsible for:

Chairing and deputy chairing Cabinet
Implementing government business
Overseeing committees and implementation taskforces, devolution consequences of the United Kingdom's exit from the European Union, and constitutional affairs
Providing oversight to all Cabinet Office policies

Which would pretty much cover us if we ever ended up without a PM ahead of no deal.

If the entire cabinet resigned?

Fuck knows.

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RedToothBrush · 17/09/2019 08:20

BCF remember that Johnson has NOT resigned in law until the Queen accepts it.

He can resign on a speech but its not legal in effect until he goes to the palace and the Queen says yes.

The question you therefore have to ask is what the Queen's constitutional duty is in this, and that's surely about upholding the rule of law and serving the peoples interests.

I would guess that unless the is an obvious successor who has informally accepted the role of PM the Queen is constitutionally bound to refuse to except the resignation of the current PM.

That's my best guess anyway.

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Peregrina · 17/09/2019 08:21

The rights British women currently have

Some of us are old enough to have been involved in the wave of feminism in the late sixties and early seventies so fought for rights then. Like equal pay for equal work. I remember the time when job adverts would regularly advertise one rate for men, and a rate significantly less for a woman doing the same job. Because men, you see, had families to support - even though the man might have been a 21 year old single lad, and a mature woman, who might have been supporting a family and a disabled husband, well, she didn't. This is a real example, I am quoting.

So don't come it, when talking about people who haven't fought for rights.

Ellie56 · 17/09/2019 08:22

Can you imagine the tabloid headlines if there are Christmas food issues?!

One Christmas apparently police were called to our local Asda as customers were fighting over the turkeys. Imagine that scenario over every food item in every foodstore in the country if we crash out without a deal.Shock

It doesn't bear thinking about.

Peregrina · 17/09/2019 08:28

One Christmas apparently police were called to our local Asda as customers were fighting over the turkeys.

They would have to introduce rationing, and the True BeLeavers would say this was what they wanted, one of those little bumps in the road that we are now told they knew about before hand and besides which we are an obese nation so it will be good for us.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 08:30

If he did resign, the others would have to as well;
otherwise, they would be obliged to select one of themselves as PM, who would have to obey the Benn bill.

So, one out, all out

mummmy2017 · 17/09/2019 08:31

Your like a pack of sharks circling a suspected victim.
All Boris has to do is sit still and the mess in Parliament will leave the EU with no deal at the table, and we will be out.

MrPan · 17/09/2019 08:31

Christmas disruption would sickeningly appeal to the brainless "there's a war on" of the temp, part time soldier Mark Francois, brexity type.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 08:33

Impossible in practice to force someone to be a caretaker PM if they refuse
He could cite moral objections or hell, even health problems or PTSD
With only days to go, he could run out time like this

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 08:34

I don't think Christmas issues would appeal to . I think it would be something which would actually tip the balance to 'this wasn't what we voted for', no matter how much they bang on about solving the obesity crisis right now.

MockersthefeMANist · 17/09/2019 08:34

Today is The Day. Their Lord & Ladyships have read their papers and given consideration and will deliver their judgements. And it's a Biggie.

On the one hand, no written law has been broken. On the other, if one govt. can get away with this, then what will some other govt. do?

If you want to be really radical, how is it possible to justify the royal perogative at all?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 08:34

If BJ just "sits still," then he breaks the law

I admit I don't know if that has practical consequences for him

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 08:35

What time are we expecting the judgement ?

DGRossetti · 17/09/2019 08:35

Returning to the theme of SCOTUK not having oversight of the legality of government actions, on reflection, I believe I made an error of law/constitution when I was casting SCOTUK as the highest court in the land. Because of course it is not.

The highest court in the land is ... Parliament.

Not quite sure if that makes the slightest jot of difference. However the ruling of SCOTUK might be different if the highest court in the land cant' meet (because it's prorogued) than if parliament was available to hear a case.

Any constitutional lawyers with nothing to do today, care to comment Grin

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 08:36

Oh, we had a fight over sprouts in our Asda last year. Despite there being more out the back (they were so busy fighting they didn't listen to the staff telling them this!).

MrPan · 17/09/2019 08:36

Judgement probs Friday, I read.

MrPan · 17/09/2019 08:36

at leat Fri 13th was last week,,,

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/09/2019 08:36

BJ can’t just sit still because the Benn Act has a deadline of 19th Oct