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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

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thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 23:56

I mean we thought I'd say this but, for all it turned my hair grey, I'm glad I raised my son to experiment with sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, rather than on-line trolling, during his teens.

#proudmum
#winningatlife

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 23:57

That should read, ' I never thought I'd say this ...'

Goodness knows what's going on with my autocorrect.

yolofish · 16/09/2019 23:59

snort thecat! how very unlike the homelife of our own dear Queen etc etc

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 00:01

@yolo not so Prince Andrew though, it seems.

yolofish · 17/09/2019 00:04

oh the old bad apple jesuis! (I think you are in Kent like me? just read something hideous about closure of M20, A20 and M2 this w/e, which will be a pleasant foretaste of things to come...)

thecatfromjapan · 17/09/2019 00:11

I love that line, yolo.

I remember an MNer posting it when describing her experiences being taught how to twerk by her daughter in the kitchen.

thecatfromjapan · 17/09/2019 00:12

(And she explained the provenance, too. Is MN still like that? I don't seem able to find those sorts of threads these days.)

0lga · 17/09/2019 01:03

Cat - I’ve been here for 16 years and I don’t remember it being like that. It was all baby pasta and bats around here you know Grin

thecatfromjapan · 17/09/2019 01:08

Oh, it was the mix of twerking and knowledge of Victorian cultural ephemera ...

I saw the bat pop up the other day, to be fair.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/09/2019 01:14

We need COD back from the olden days of MN. Her bizarre spellings would probably make more sense than most politicians

0lga · 17/09/2019 01:16

@prettybird

I make a really good gluten free chocolate Jaffa cake (essentially an orange cake with lots of chocolate on top) as one of ds' flat mates last year was coeliac. Also made a batch of gluten free chocolate chip cookies for him

That sounds amazing, I don’t suppose you can remember where you got the recipe ? I like Nigellas Gf clementine cake but it’s quite dense. Much like some of the British electorate ( see what I did there, eh eh get me)

< risks wrath of Cordelia by making frivolous comments >

BTW you are such a nice mum to send emergency food parcels for students ( in Furryboots city IIRC? )

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/09/2019 01:26

Cordelia

Here’s a nice conundrum. DH is Algerian. His DF fought for the French army in WWII (quite probably was at Monte Cassino as he fought in Italy and the Algerians fought a very bloody battle there) to free Europe from occupation. Then returned home to a country where he was denied democratic rights by ...wait for it... the French colonial powers.

So who was fighting for whose freedom?

Gosh this democracy business is complicated!

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 05:08

Where are you based, cordelia?
Do you ask all the Lear daughters that, fluffy?

When Regan and Goneril show up, bitch-plopping in flowery language, on here, I'll ask them the same question.

For now, I'm asking you, with your pseudo-intelligent 'analysis' of the situation (except there is no analysis, it's just a stream of long words with very little substantive meaning), and your interesting turn of phrase and use of language.

You have an unusual style of writing. Excuse me if I dismiss you as not being entirely genuine.

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 05:13

Oh, and if BoJo resigns, we aren't left without a PM, as the Deputy will take over - temporarily - with immediate effect and would then be bound by the Benn Bill. We wouldn't be left without somebody in that role (or that was the analysis in the papers when TM's demise was predicted, anyway).

mathanxiety · 17/09/2019 05:25

You and most on this thread have clearly never done anything to attain the rights you currently have courtesy of those who have won them on your behalf.
Cordelia

That sounds like the sort of sentiment you find in the US where veterans are a significant group, and many who are very old actually have fought in WW2, when the US fought on two fronts. You see it in memes in November.

It sounds really strange coming from a British keyboard.

Unless you are referring to Magna Carta? In which case, tell us the secret of time travel

The rights British women currently have - many here are women - are the result of dogged determination on the part of British suffragettes, fighting a bunch of British fuddy duds and handmaidens.

A huge number of rights including many rights women take for granted now, are thanks to the ECHR.

Here's a summary. 'What has the ECHR ever done for us?'
mathanxiety · 17/09/2019 05:30

flouncyfanny Mon 16-Sep-19 17:12:43
math could it be a small cock?

Why yes, now that I have retrieved my glasses, I believe you (and DGR) are absolutely correct.

borntobequiet · 17/09/2019 05:41

Interesting when randoms appear and immediately start launching personal attacks on regular posters, then claim themselves to have been picked on. I miss many of these late night thread shenanigans as I go to bed early.
Also, frivolously, thanks all for encouragement, I bought the jacket and will accessorise with a RTB on the next march.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/09/2019 06:02

Morning Born- glad you got the red jacket. An uplifting thing in the midst of the dystopia.

I'm struggling to keep up with the thread as have been working a lot. I dreamed a good way to Make it stop though. In my dream the head teacher at DDs school was voted as the next PM. He has good judgment, chooses good staff and is pretty good at running things.

Please can we start again so my dream becomes reality. Each constituency could vote for their best local head teacher to be acting MP. (Sorry for Caroline Lucas etc- but the ends would justify the means.) That would make it all stop.

tobee · 17/09/2019 06:17

Actually who is the deputy PM? Not sure I can bring myself to look it up. Couldn't watch the news when Johnson was first given the job; just remember a parade of ghastlies given cabinet posts.

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 06:22

Holy fuck. It's essentially Raab, apparently.

We're doomed!

Oakenbeach · 17/09/2019 06:37

Oh, and if BoJo resigns, we aren't left without a PM, as the Deputy will take over - temporarily - with immediate effect and would then be bound by the Benn Bill.

Does it work like that? I thought a new PM had to be agreed by HMQ (albeit this is usually a formality), and that a new PM had to convince HMQ that he or she had the confidence of the Commons and was in a position to lead the Government... It’s hard to see how a new Tory PM could do this in the current circumstances.

However, there must be contingency arrangements I suppose for taking executive action (such as in the event of an attack by another country) in the event of the PM being indisposed.... I thought the deputy was Gove?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 06:43

Unfortunately, that's not the case wrt a BJ resignation, fluffy
The situation with May was different, in that the problem was with May herself, not the courts

If May had resigned, then normal procedure would have applied and the Cabinet would have selected one of themselves as interim PM, very probably Liddington as he was her de facto deputy
Liddington would not have been legally required to become PM but he would presumably have felt duty-bound to do so

If BJ resigned however, it would only be to avoid being legally bound to ask for an extension
It is NOT mandatory for the Deputy PM to accept the post, or for the Cabinet to select an interim PM - they would presumably all resign right after BJ
Neither would any Tory MP be required to step up - they would all be whipped not to do so

So, the Rebel Alliance would have to agree a PM from amongst themselves within a few days, to give time for HMQ to be notified that this new bod would have the confidence of the HoC as PM
BJ / Cum would probably try to delay this via the courts and then call an immediate VoNC, to see e.g. if enough ex-Tory rebels would balk if Corbyn were the choice

DGRossetti · 17/09/2019 06:43

The only real question SCOTUK really needs to address is Is the government above the law ?

If they rule yes, then we never lived in a democracy. Good luck with any trade deals then. I know I wouldn't want to deal with a country that can't be held to account. And if I did, I'd want a lot of return on my capital to offset the risk.

Unless anyone can correct me, there is no other democracy in the world where the government cannot - and is not - held to account by law.

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 06:46

That's interesting, BCF.

I am hoping that the opposition and rebels are sorting something concrete out amongst themselves during prorogation. It's a poor do if they can't manage it.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2019 06:50

So, the Rebel Alliance would have to agree a PM from amongst themselves within a few days, to give time for HMQ to be notified that this new bod would have the confidence of the HoC as PM

Although one or two posters here did respectfully suggest they got their fucking act in order, ducks in a row, or whatever, and prepared for that eventuality now. So it's (a) agreed and (b) transparent.