Westministenders: Parliament Perogies pushing Rats in the Corner

[RedToothBrush]

One Opposition MP has just talked in parliament about how little the public understand what Preroguation is and what it meant. She described how one constituent thought it was about perogies.

The Benn Bill is now law and compels Johnson to ask for an extension if we have no deal.

Something that he has said he will die in a ditch to avoid and has suggested he would break the law.

But his options are hugely limited - if he refuses to do so and we no deal accidentally now, he is potentially personally liable for loses. He has no majority and the defeats keep on coming as a result.

Everything coming out now is the behaviour of a man with his back to the wall. The only thing he can do is frame everything as a people v the establishment and hope he survived until a GE. This is a dangerous time - he is now a rat in the corner with nothing to lose.

After Rudd's resignation, not much has got better for Johnson. Several other Tory MPs have signalled they won't stand again. This might mean they decide to rebel as they have nothing to lose. Lord Wellington, who has Tory written through him like a stick of rock, has also resigned the party. Attorney General Buckland hasn't resigned but has made threatening noises if the rule of law is broken.

Proroguation now does stack pressure on Johnson. He has to be the one to make moves and that is going to be difficult for him. However it also gives him time to say and do something without the scrutiny of parliament who have been blowing his arguments and legal assertions to bits with such ease.

Today he has visited Dublin where he stood next to Leo Varadkar who was less than polite nor even particularly diplomatic. The discomfort on Johnson's face and in his body language was very obvious. Varadkar in no uncertain terms said: ""if there is no deal, it will cause disruption for British and Irish people alike", adding "there's no such thing as a clean break, or just getting it done" and that he'd recieved no workable plan.

Tonight are two emergency debates. The first has just concluded about the government's lack of willingness to release documents relating to proroguation and operation yellowhammer.

Its been reported that ministers and civil servants have used private communications to conduct government ministers and this has caused huge concerns and Grieve wants to compel the government to release them. The government have responded saying this is an invasion of privacy. This has raised the accusation that Dominic Cummings personally has rifled through the phone messages of the former treasury communications officer as he sacked her and number 10 were not particularly concerned about her privacy then.

At the same time as the debate the government were briefing the press that they would refuse to comply with demands to release information. Grieve then made the point this was leading to the complete breakdown in trust in government.

David Allen Green said that if the government were to do this we could well be headed into a full blown constitutional crisis. This is the first time he's said he thinks we are actually at this stage.

Grieve was supported by the house by 311 votes to 302 votes ordering the government to release the documents.

The second debate is about the Rule of Law and the government's obligation to obey the Rule of Law.

Yet to come tonight is another vote about an early General Election before parliament pergoies, possibly in the early hours.

In other news John Bercow has decided to stand down at the next election or on the 31st October, which ever is sooner. There are rumours he was about to be deselected by his local conservative association and against convention would have to fight an election to win back his seat. He therefore was merely taking action before he was pushed. This might also be an action to protect parliament from the election of a new speaker after another election, fearing that there might be a hard right takeover which could threaten parliamentary soverignity.

Also this:
Declan Lawn @DecLawn
ERG stalwart Andrew Bridgen on @BBCPM saying the only way he could see a NI only backstop being acceptable is if it was put to an NI-only referendum. Fascinating.

Robert Peston@peston
Downing St sources, corroborated by ministers, tell me Boris Johnson reiterated at cabinet today he would not negotiate delay in Brussels on 17-18 October and his goal is unchanged by the law passed by Parliament — that is to leave on 31 October with a deal if possible...

but without if necessary. Johnson said that what he will do on 19 October, when the new law would force him to sign a letter requesting a delay, “will only be clearer very near the time”. But No.10 sources continue to emphasise that they intend to “sabotage” extension...

Extraordinary choice of word “sabotage”. When has a prime minister ever before engaged in “sabotage”. But this PM and his chief aide Dominic Cummings are - to put it mildly - different from their predecessors.

I have just been watching the BBC programme on The Troubles, which I recommend.

I could not help but contrast how the Troubles escalated by poor decision making into violence and Civil War. Contrast this with the inept decision making of Cameron and his stupid Referendum to appease his right wing, May trying to appease the right wing compounded with a lack of imagination and now Boris Johnson with his piffle, piffle, waffle, waffle, play acting.

I don't think the comparisons are exact because the NI border was an artificial one and designed to discriminate against the Catholic/Nationalist population, whereas this does not apply in the same way to the neglected areas of Great Britain.

It's a bit more complicated than Labour backing a referendum on WA versus Remain.

(Of course it is! 🤷‍♀️)

John McDonnell is suggesting a referendum on a slightly polished-up WA versus Remain.

The Unite crew are pushing for full-on attempts at s renegotiation of WA, and then that to go to s Referendum.

For myself, I think the Unite dream is just that - a fantasy & an exercise in time-wasting.

It's also mad because it means Labour will negotiate s Desl (in theory) & then lots of members will campaign against it.

That's ... not good.

A free referendum on May's WA (with some tweaking), with freedom for members to campaign for and against, is a great deal less risible.

It all has to go to Conferrnce, anyway & be discussed with members.

Yes, the idea of a referendum on the WA versus Remain seems ... kind of sensible, really.

So sensible that I just can't see it happening ...

But ... nuance is hard to convey on the doorstep, on social media, & in MSM. 🤷‍♀️

And the other issue is that the mythical Labour Leave voters are very, very small in number. While the Remain voters are quite large in number & have demonstrated they are prepared to switch their votes to the Greens & Lib Dem's.

Carnage awaits, I feel.

Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain"

I think if Labour did get a mandate in a GE, and did try to negotiate a withdrawal agreement, they would take a considerably less belligerent stance than May did, so would probably make better progress and come back with a working deal which could be set against a Remain option.

With the LibDems, in what would appear to be the very unlikely position of them getting a mandate in a GE, it would be legitimate to revoke, because they would have been elected upon this basis.

As for Johnson and his 'surrender' stuff - see my post about The Troubles - incompetent decision making getting out of hand. This won't end well, unless he and Cummings can be stopped.

And a response to that Alex Spence thread linked above.

Jo Maugham QC Retweeted Alex Spence
I didn't take this seriously. But a pal in a very good position to know says (remarkably to me) that it's absolutely true.

However bad you think things are, they're worse.
Jo Maugham QC added,
Alex Spence
@alexGspence
EXCL: I've been leaked a personal minute from Boris Johnson to cabinet ministers in which he says wants to turn the public GOV.UK site into a platform for "targeted and personalised" data to be gathered in the run-up to Brexit.
www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-voter-data …

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
We at @GoodLawProject have commissioned legal advice from leading Counsel specialising in employment law and data protection law on what duties, obligations and protections civil servants have when asked to break the law. We will publish that advice when it becomes available.
10:59 am - 10 Sep 2019

Sorry. I broke the rules of the thread.

See further

Paul Mason
Twitter:

10/09/19 21:47

‘What's going on in the Brexit cluster* tonight? My upsum: 1/ A whole bunch of PLP members and Tory rebels have swung to a "referendum first, election second" position. The aim is clear: to stop a Corbyn premiereship...
2/ At the TULO meeting in Brighton, Unite attacked Labour shadow cabinet members pledged to vote Remain in a referendum, saying it wanted a Labour-designed Brexit deal negotiated over 6 months...
3/ But there's an emergent compromise, as explained by McDonnell on the Marr programme: Labour goes to the polls offering a referendum on May's Withdrawal Agreement, with some tweaks, versus Remain. Personally I am happy with this...
4/ There is no way I would support the Libdem position to Revoke A50 without a second referendum. Likewise a second referendum before an election is a non-starter democratically. We need an election once an extension is granted, and soon...
5/ The whole flurry of developments reveals the basic forces at work: the liberal centre wants to keep Corbyn out of power, the Lexiteers cling to the delusion of a "jobs first Brexit", while the Labour rank and file want the chance to go on the doorstep for Remain/Transform...
6/ Fortunately Labour has an excellent mechanism for sorting this out - a delegate conference held in full view of civil society, with all options on the table. ENDS

If Cummings doesn't care about breaking the law, there's no point threatening him with it.

But the civil servants he's asking to (probably) break GDPR... they may feel differently.

The problem with a Labour Deal is that (I believe) they still rule out the SM and FOM. Though I agree they would be less belligerent.

But who knows?

I do think that the Lib Dem stance of moving away from a PV to Revoke is going to take a lot of Labour votes, though. And it might deliver some Conservative victories.

It's all very distressing.

Yy, agree that NI border is hardest possible case, because as PP say, toxic history in general and GFA in particular.

So other borders wouldn't have the same level of difficulty politically. But from the logistics point of view, yet another land border would be yet another nightmare. A border between Scotland (independent or EU EU) and rUK out of the EU would be no minor matter. It's a whole different ballgame from the time of the Indyref, when both parties were expected to end up in the EU.

At this stage I have no qualm with ROI/Varadker supporting his country now. He is a legend and such a polished performer in comparison to Johnson yesterday. I actually cringed at Johnson, he was just so disrespectful, or maybe he wanted to be out of there, because the truth was too much for him.

Just despicable how this storm will affect our neighbours and no one seems to give a damn.

Just shows you. Don't want EU, don't want ROI.

I do realise that many do not follow that line, but sadly those can, will destroy our EU neighbours. For what?, it is really awful behaviour now.

Only thing that's left for UK is Trump. Humpphhh.

Did anyone hear Alan Duncan's speech last night?

I thought it was very good, talking about the divisiveness of Brexit.

I really hope that in a campaign, people remember what has happened.

We have had a vote. We have had 3 years of it. We are divided, I think we do need a public vote - but I also think that No Deal needs to be off the table. I am not sure if it's democratic to leave No Deal off a referendum choice.

I really hope that these messages about the damaging effect of a No Deal, the divisiveness of the last few years and the need to compromise come across in the election.

I hate that it is a general election. As has been pointed out, a Government with 35% of the vote could get a majority in Parliament and do something that many people don't want. A referendum, with clear policies, should be the best way to separate the policies in a general election from the Brexit issue.

The problem with a Labour Deal is that (I believe) they still rule out the SM and FOM. Though I agree they would be less belligerent

I thought Labour wanted a single market. Or a custom's union. Although I am not sure of the difference - and I thought I was on top of all this...

I think they only want CU ...
(But I also doubt myself. 😂 Honestly, it's so mad!!!)

One from Antrim to Mull of Kintyre is only bout 12 miles long,

You cannot build a bridge to the Mull of Kintyre. Just this sentence put that awful Paul McCartney song in my head ... imagine years of it being on the news They'd probably open every piece about it playing that song! Good lord have mercy.

While the Remain voters are quite large in number & have demonstrated they are prepared to switch their votes to the Greens & Lib Dem's.

They lost my vote in the European elections because they didn't support a P.V and the Lib Dems did. I emailed them to tell them as such. they have changed their stance to match my wishes - I'm not now moving the goal post and saying it's revoke or nothing. They did what i wanted - fair dues - they get my vote back.

Likewise a second referendum before an election is a non-starter democratically. We need an election once an extension is granted, and soon

I think I'd prefer the ref first (to make sure we get it and to make sure the worst case scenario is the W.A). A ref doesn't have to take months and months - it can be expedited to weeks. We haven't had efficient working govt since May 2017. Parliament has been in recess the last 6 weeks and is currently prorogued - the country is still (just about) turning. A few more weeks delay of crap, unstable govt won't change anything too radically.
A G.E before a referendum puts no deal squarely back on the table if we end up with a hard right tory/ BXP coalition. A G.E after a referendum means the G.E can actually be about what we want as a country instead of voting for a 5 year govt based entirely on the existential quagmire we are currently bogged down in.

If some kind of miracle is pulled off and they get the numbers to attach a referendum to the W.A then that is what needs to be sorted and voted on immediately. We have the rest of our fucking lives to choose a P.M.

You know, the big problem Labour had in the EU election was a marked absence of activists willing to go out and knock on doors.

It wasn't just voters who moved to the LibDems & Greens.

Labour Conference is definitely going to be interesting.

Brexit is so, so, so toxic and divisive. It's utterly depressing.

I am not sure if it's democratic to leave No Deal off a referendum choice.

I think this is perfectly acceptable - a WA agreement will lead to a form of Brexit which is consistent with the spirit of the original referendum.

That's a cheering post, ICan't. 🙂

One from Antrim to Mull of Kintyre is only bout 12 miles long,

What would people do when they got to the Mull of Kintyre? This idea has to have been invented by someone who has never been there.

To the pp talking about voting overseas this is perfectly possible and DH and I are all set up to do this.

I did hear Alan Duncan's speech and I thought it measured and very good, and it showed that not all Tories were headbangers. But, and I have already said this, it led me to think about the Fixed Term Parliament Act and I don't think it catastrophic - the requirement of needing a 2/3 majority or having a VoNC before calling an election, to me provides sufficient flexibility. Last time, May was able to persuade Parliament to vote for a GE. This time Johnson has failed, in the main because a majority of the House think he is dishonourable.

I think this is perfectly acceptable - a WA agreement will lead to a form of Brexit which is consistent with the spirit of the original referendum.

And one of them - I think it was Michael Gove - recently said that 'No Deal' wasn't a final destination - something would have to come after. there would be an eventual deal.
I've been pointing out for months that if the purpose of a P..V is to break the deadlock and give parliament a mandate to do something (anything!), then giving us an option to vote on that essentially gives them no more of a road map then they already have, but ties their hands so they are democratically bound not to sort it out (any deal struck after a vote for no deal is a violation of the will of the people), would be ludicrous.

It isn't antidemocratic for a functioning parliament to refuse the ludicrous. And a functioning parliament is what a P.V is striving to restore.

Labour Conference is definitely going to be interesting

There are going to be some very targeted constituencies, aren't there...

And the alliances, the role of the Brexit party etc are all going to make it even more interesting.

I just want to ask the Lib Dems or Labour if they are worried about letting a Conservative / BXP win because they have split the anti No Deal vote. Because that's the key - stopping No Deal - and there are plenty of constituencies where it could be split and it needs to be focused.

The Stop No Deal alliance is better than being called the Surrender or the Remain alliance.