Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Parliament Perogies pushing Rats in the Corner

984 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2019 19:35

One Opposition MP has just talked in parliament about how little the public understand what Preroguation is and what it meant. She described how one constituent thought it was about perogies.

The Benn Bill is now law and compels Johnson to ask for an extension if we have no deal.

Something that he has said he will die in a ditch to avoid and has suggested he would break the law.

But his options are hugely limited - if he refuses to do so and we no deal accidentally now, he is potentially personally liable for loses. He has no majority and the defeats keep on coming as a result.

Everything coming out now is the behaviour of a man with his back to the wall. The only thing he can do is frame everything as a people v the establishment and hope he survived until a GE. This is a dangerous time - he is now a rat in the corner with nothing to lose.

After Rudd's resignation, not much has got better for Johnson. Several other Tory MPs have signalled they won't stand again. This might mean they decide to rebel as they have nothing to lose. Lord Wellington, who has Tory written through him like a stick of rock, has also resigned the party. Attorney General Buckland hasn't resigned but has made threatening noises if the rule of law is broken.

Proroguation now does stack pressure on Johnson. He has to be the one to make moves and that is going to be difficult for him. However it also gives him time to say and do something without the scrutiny of parliament who have been blowing his arguments and legal assertions to bits with such ease.

Today he has visited Dublin where he stood next to Leo Varadkar who was less than polite nor even particularly diplomatic. The discomfort on Johnson's face and in his body language was very obvious. Varadkar in no uncertain terms said: ""if there is no deal, it will cause disruption for British and Irish people alike", adding "there's no such thing as a clean break, or just getting it done" and that he'd recieved no workable plan.

Tonight are two emergency debates. The first has just concluded about the government's lack of willingness to release documents relating to proroguation and operation yellowhammer.

Its been reported that ministers and civil servants have used private communications to conduct government ministers and this has caused huge concerns and Grieve wants to compel the government to release them. The government have responded saying this is an invasion of privacy. This has raised the accusation that Dominic Cummings personally has rifled through the phone messages of the former treasury communications officer as he sacked her and number 10 were not particularly concerned about her privacy then.

At the same time as the debate the government were briefing the press that they would refuse to comply with demands to release information. Grieve then made the point this was leading to the complete breakdown in trust in government.

David Allen Green said that if the government were to do this we could well be headed into a full blown constitutional crisis. This is the first time he's said he thinks we are actually at this stage.

Grieve was supported by the house by 311 votes to 302 votes ordering the government to release the documents.

The second debate is about the Rule of Law and the government's obligation to obey the Rule of Law.

Yet to come tonight is another vote about an early General Election before parliament pergoies, possibly in the early hours.

In other news John Bercow has decided to stand down at the next election or on the 31st October, which ever is sooner. There are rumours he was about to be deselected by his local conservative association and against convention would have to fight an election to win back his seat. He therefore was merely taking action before he was pushed. This might also be an action to protect parliament from the election of a new speaker after another election, fearing that there might be a hard right takeover which could threaten parliamentary soverignity.

Also this:
Declan Lawn @DecLawn
ERG stalwart Andrew Bridgen on @BBCPM saying the only way he could see a NI only backstop being acceptable is if it was put to an NI-only referendum. Fascinating.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
LyraParry · 10/09/2019 14:24

I think that a soft Brexit is the one that a majority in the UK would now accept.

I think the majority of "remainers" would have always accepted this - I voted remain and certainly would have. That's why both of the largest parties had their Brexit plans in their manifestos in 2017, and between them got the vast majority of the vote share and seats in HoC. The vast majority of the country accepted that we needed to leave, even if it wasn't our first choice.

The problem with any kind of soft Brexit was always the hardline ERG types. At the time of the WA a lot of the "remainer" misgivings in parliament were worries that it paved the way to a ridiculously hard Brexit.

DGRossetti · 10/09/2019 14:26

My "Wikileaks" reference wasn't about St. Julien, but the network(s) of hackers that are supposed to be everywhere if you believe our security services (which I don't).

PerkingFaintly · 10/09/2019 14:26

I got all excited for a moment there, BigChocFrenzy.Grin

PerkingFaintly · 10/09/2019 14:30

Im just a SAHM who really should get on with washing my dishes and pulling up my weeds this afternoon.

And a telephone box on the corner where you pull on your pants outside your trousers.Grin

ThanksThanksThanks for your amazing analysis and for keeping these threads going.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:31

Meanwhile, company investment has quietly been flowing out of the UK since the 2016 ref:

The Netherlands today published striking figures on UK-NL investment flows:

In 2016 UK companies invested €14bn in NL
In 2018, that increased to €80bn

In contrast,
In 2016 Dutch companies invested €50bn in the UK
In 2018, the WITHDREW €11bn

Westministenders: Parliament Perogies pushing Rats in the Corner
BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:34

red is 🤺 🧗🏼‍♀️ < superhro icon required >

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2019 14:38

My "Wikileaks" reference wasn't about St. Julien, but the network(s) of hackers that are supposed to be everywhere if you believe our security services (which I don't).

There's more than you think.

The question is more whether they 'people's agents' in the vein of anonymous or state sponsored hackers acting under orders?

The former have often tended to be a bit shit and rather naive, thus somewhat ineffectual or a blunt and clumsy in their approach.

The latter are the ones with skills, knowledge and a certain amount of ability.

That said, you'd be surprised just how crap security is for some major companies. Simple security errors are the issue - and more often than not you don't have to be a hacker at all to abuse these security breeches.

I think the myth of the hacker really is unhelpful. Incompetence and lack of following basic security protocols are far more of an issue.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:41

That's an overall change in investment flow of €125bn (€ 64+61bn) UK ==> NL

and that's just one (important) EU country
What is the total over the EU ?

and of course some investment will have been switched from the Uk to non-EU countries as well

The E27 may be reflecting that actually some of them may benefit overall from Brexit

JeSuisPoulet · 10/09/2019 14:42

@DGR re uniform I have wondered for a while now about fb profile pictures as a form of uniform - displaying your group if you like. Has the added advantage in these turbulent times of only being visible when you are not actually around to have to debate...

Agree the tide could have been turned by TM or Cameron going over that the ref was ADVISORY and looking into the dark money clearly flowing in the direction of Leave. Yes there would have been cries of "unfair" but the lack of it meant all evidence has been swept under the carpet rather than acted on. That was the end of democracy.

Was musing on the public health implications of cheap booze and fags and how this was a vote winner for both sides - we need crutches now more than ever without access to meds.

Speaking of which, the lists are doing the rounds on fb. Many people I know voted leave are suddenly realising that their lives will change Hmm and are asking why the govt isn't giving out clear advice...holding onto Yellowhammer will be just as damaging as releasing it if people wonder why...

prettybird · 10/09/2019 14:49

Re Swinson and her ability to retain her seat: my dad chatted to an SNP leafletter who agreed that the SNP would have to put up a really good candidate against her. Not only is she a really hard working and respected constituency MP but her constituents had their fingers burnt in 2015, as the SNP guy who beat her then was crap. Lazy and arrogant (my dad describes him as "like Johnson in his arrogance and sense of self-importance" Hmm).

Here's hoping that they find an excellent candidate Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:49

Wikileaks has been pretty useful to Putin

It's usual when people or an organisation are really working for a government
that they produce some useful work for their ostensible cause
Like any other mole, really, just on a bigger scale

Look at the really big Wikileaks scoops that had the most effect:

How many any of them really hurt Russia ?
How many of them helped advance the nihilistic far right in the West and hence Russian interests ?

Where does the balance lie re helping / hurting the nihilistic far right ?

DGRossetti · 10/09/2019 14:49

The question is more whether they 'people's agents' in the vein of anonymous or state sponsored hackers acting under orders?

The question is more whether the people doing it know themselves ..

That said, you'd be surprised just how crap security is for some major companies.

I wouldn't. I really wouldn't. I know very well exactly how budgets work and how quickly "do we really need that ?" gets lopped off them ...

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 10/09/2019 14:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:52

Just bad luck / coincidence or enemy action ?

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:53

If BJ CUmmings controls the narrative, those people will be convinced it it the fault of the EU
Worked so far

JeSuisPoulet · 10/09/2019 14:55

"The world of reality has it's limits; the world of imagination is boundless" (Jean-Jacques Rousseau)

Maybe Cummings hasn't thought that bit of withholding Yellowhammer through Hmm

FishesaPlenty · 10/09/2019 14:56

Does anyone know if an ex-Speaker would get security protection like (I assume) an ex-Prime Minister does? I suspect not, but does anybody know?

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 14:58

Some may believe that after a few years of BJ destroying the welfare state & the economy,
that Labour would sweep back into power for a generation

We just don't know
However, our best hope of getting the WA through is that the Men in Grey Suits are sufficiently worried about this

DGRossetti · 10/09/2019 14:59

re uniform I have wondered for a while now about fb profile pictures as a form of uniform - displaying your group if you like. Has the added advantage in these turbulent times of only being visible when you are not actually around to have to debate

FB is all very well for the sort of people that like FB, but (don't tell the boy Zucker) doesn't really translate to real life.

Uniforms serve to simultaneously unite and divide ... the knuckledraggers see the same uniform on others (because it''' be 50/50 as to whether they can read) and get that terrible sense of invulnerability from being in a gang. At the same time people not wearing one are intimidated and cowed.

My DM didn't often talk about my DFs family, but I recall her admiration when she told us how our DGPs told the blackshirts to fuck off when they knocked and said DF had to join the GIL. (Admittedly there were geographical peculiarities that ensured no one in the village did)

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 15:00

Fishes They don't as a rule, because no need until now

I don't think he has a regular police bodyguard atm, any more than Soubry or other MPs at risk do.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 15:02

Yes, all ex-PMs get regular police protection
ex-NI SoS used to as well, but that stopped being a worry years ago

JeSuisPoulet · 10/09/2019 15:02

DGR despite winning, Leavers aren't fully in control yet. Heaven forbid! Once they get their moment to take over the streets, I'm sure the yellow vest + St George will be given out like sweeties.

Myriade · 10/09/2019 15:04

We will still be Europeans. We just won't be in the EU

In some ways I disagree. Brtish people will not be europeans as in part of big supportive group that is the EU. Remembering that nowdays thats what being european means as ALL EU countries (bar the UK that wants to get out) are part of it....
And the reverse of that is that EU citizens will not be welcome in the UK but treated like any other non EU immigrants. That is with the hostile environment.

Have a look at the modification for the SS
www.freemovement.org.uk/welcome-and-unwelcome-rule-changes-made-to-eu-settlement-scheme-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR3X2y2Fzw_wro9cwiZwANa8i5kPWJOcFkJvStLPolB8a7-_wH1I74O74sQ
I have often advised EEA citizens and their family members that settled status will give them everything they need, and it will be secure for their lifetime so long as they don’t get into any trouble. I tell them that British citizenship should be seen a choice they make based on their own individual needs, requirements and desires. It should not be seen as a necessity, particularly given how expensive those applications are. These Statement of Changes make things much more complicated. It’s by no means straight forward, but I might now be slightly more inclined to look into British citizenship myself if I am in this scenario. This Statement of Changes provides a glimpse into the future of how EEA citizens will be treated after Brexit.

So basically a lawyer specialised in immiration issues is now saying that the SS isnt as safe as it was made out to be (surprise anyone?) and that to avoid issue, EU citizens should get the british citizenship...

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/09/2019 15:09

Ellie Mae O'Hagan 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿
@MissEllieMae
·
3h
Actually I find it kind of depressing that the Lib Dems are more focused on out manoeuvring Labour and striking up non-aggression pacts than they are on presenting a vision for the country and then fighting for it. There is something nihilistic about the technocracy of it.

FishesaPlenty · 10/09/2019 15:11

no need until now

I was watching his performance last night and hoping that Branson or someone is going to whisk him away to some island somewhere for a couple of years after he stands down. He must surely have some exit plan.

Swipe left for the next trending thread