The Brexit Arms

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Hold the line Brexiters!!

Nearly there...

Only 53 days to go!

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a hard border removes those rights.

It doesn’t have to

Because right now this mess needs sorting
No deal and we cut all the ties and start on a clean sheet .

Not a clean sheet at all. The UK is straight back to sorting out the UK border, EU citizens rights and the monies owed to the EU.

@Bearbehind - It doesn’t have to

Really? And how exactly do you suggest the cross-border initiatives and the all-island bodies work in a practical way with a hard border? The hint is on the word "hard".

Really? And how exactly do you suggest the cross-border initiatives and the all-island bodies work in a practical way with a hard border? The hint is on the word "hard".

So you’re saying it’s absolutely impossible? That there’s no way of changing the current arrangement ever?

The biggest problem in all this mess is people’s refusal to see any of this through anything other than their own eyes.

This thread has been perfect evidence of that.

The biggest problem is people not understanding the importance of preserving GFA.

@Bearbehind - So you’re saying it’s absolutely impossible? That there’s no way of changing the current arrangement ever?

I didn't say that. I said a hard border prevents it happening. There may be ways around it in the future when technology allows a soft border, but at the moment, it's not possible with a hard border.

You didn't answer my question: And how exactly do you suggest the cross-border initiatives and the all-island bodies work in a practical way with a hard border?

Even if you don't give a shit about the Irish, are you willing to sacrifice other British citizens and businesses because that's what your doing with a hard border. Nobody in NI wants a hard border except maybe the DUP and their followers. The NI business association has come out and said that 94% of their members are in support of the backstop. They will be financially ruined if there's a border. Forget about the fragile peace because clearly people suffering or at risk doesn't matter to leavers. A no deal Brexit will definitely ruin one part of the UK financially.

There is no such a thing as a clean cut no deal Brexit, the UK will have to come back to the table and guess what it will be an Irish man ye will be dealing with and the backstop will still be a sticking point for the EU. It doesn't go away after the 31st Britain will be hit hard by a no deal Brexit, so will Ireland but NI will be decimated. If leavers know a way better then the backstop then please let us know. Because the UK government saying there's no need for custom checks is a complete lie.

And how exactly do you suggest the cross-border initiatives and the all-island bodies work in a practical way with a hard border?

There has to be loads of options. You can cross the Dartford crossing, M6 toll, London congestion charge zones based on cameras.

It can’t be a huge leap to do the same in NI, if it wasn’t for the threat of violence,

@Bearbehind - It can’t be a huge leap to do the same in NI, if it wasn’t for the threat of violence,

Or just maybe, the fact it's an international border makes it just a little different to the Dartford crossing. Can you point to any international border that doesn't require checks?

The biggest problem in all this mess is people’s refusal to see any of this through anything other than their own eyes.

And there lies the problem in Parliament as well.

Bear's point re a sea border is as valid as Bellini's.

A sea border which creates East/West friction is as incendiary as a North/South border. The minority who seize any opportunity to agitate will leap on either as a 'reason' for violence.

The solution is entirely political - wherever the border is, it is incumbent on the politicians of each and every side to diffuse potential animosity.
Their words matter.

There is no need for an actual, physical border on the island if a north/south divide happens - checks etc can be done away from the virtual border for example.
Similarly, an East/West divide can be de-escalated by temperate language (such as 'special economic area/designated free port' etc

There are solutions to this - it is not intractable.

As BJ said last week, it would be a failure of statecraft if an agreement is not forthcoming.

"There has to be loads of options. You can cross the Dartford crossing, M6 toll, London congestion charge zones based on cameras."

When you are in a hole, stop digging. Do you think people are making this up just to piss you off?

@Bearbehind - There has to be loads of options.

You would think that if there were loads of options, someone might have suggested something by now.

if it wasn’t for the threat of violence,

You are using the threat of violence to justify breaking an international treaty. It doesn't matter whether the violence returns on not, a hard border breaks the GFA.

"A sea border which creates East/West friction is as incendiary as a North/South border. The minority who seize any opportunity to agitate will leap on either as a 'reason' for violence."
Only one fucks up an international treaty and the other doesn't.
They are all out tonight.🤦‍♀️

The technology needed for the border is at least a decade away.

Or just maybe, the fact it's an international border makes it just a little different to the Dartford crossing. Can you point to any international border that doesn't require checks?

I’m not talking about not having checks.

I’m talking about the fact checks should be possible without the risk of violence.

There is no need for an actual, physical border on the island if a north/south divide happens - checks etc can be done away from the virtual border for example.

Checks for animals and food standards cannot take place away from the border

Suggestions like that suggest you are not familiar with the nature of cross-border trade and traffic in Ireland. It's complex.

Norway plus works. UK leave, no need for a hard border anywhere.

And there is currently no way to do that. Smarter people than you or I have tried to find it. And the backstop was the idea to be a safety net in case we still couldn't find it two years from now.

@Bearbehind - I’m talking about the fact checks should be possible without the risk of violence.

And I'm saying that the threat of violence is irrelevant. Checks and a hard border break an international peace treaty.

Please tell me you knew all this before you started your "it must be No Deal" schtick.

Well, yet again, this is going nowhere.

We can’t possibly have any kind of border because of the threat of violence.

We can’t have a sea border because of the threat of breaking up the union

We can’t revoke because that’s undemocratic

So what the fuck do you think can actually happen now?

And I’m talking about things that are actually possible, not more fucking ideologies?

Please tell me you knew all this before you started your "it must be No Deal" schtick.

No bellini I was completely unaware of everything until you enlightened me 🤔

When the EU are asked about a no deal hard border, they say: "we wont put up a hard border".
When the ROI is asked about a no deal hard border, they say: "we wont put up a hard border".
When the UK is asked about a no deal hard border, they say: "we wont put up a hard border".
When leavers are asked about a no deal hard border, they say: "we wont put up a hard border"
When remainers are asked about a no deal hard border, they say: "Yes we will because that is the only way we can try and make Brexit a disaster".

Why are remainers so desperate to put up a hard border? I dont fancy their chances!

31st October: maybe its time for 17.4 million leavers to start super gluing themselves around parliament to make MPs listen.

So sickening to see all the emoting about the GFA and yet not one poster referencing the judgement of the Northern Irish courts.

Following our recent spate of rioting Glasgow has decided to suspend sectarian marching for a wee while till everyone calms down. Whether the border on the Island of Ireland is visibly soft or invisibly hard makes little difference. Moving it to the Irish Sea would be more problematic. Extraordinary hubris to think the only people who care about Ireland live there.