The Brexit Arms

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Hold the line Brexiters!!

Nearly there...

Only 53 days to go!

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Parliament does not want ANY deal, it wants to disregard he peoples vote

Do you ever wonder why that is fangirl ?

why, apt user name, you’ve not answered my question as to why a peaceful border isn’t possible

Everything you’ve listed above should be possible even with a hard border

If only those who incite violence did not do so.

"Surely it should be ok for people to move backwards and forwards, at will, without any trouble."
For. Fuck's. Sake.
All that belligerence and you don't know anything about the border.

As ever bellini you are completely missing my point.

I realise it isn’t possible but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be.

Why do you blame those who you feel don’t care about the GFA more than those who can’t maintain peace without it?

Everything you’ve listed above should be possible even with a hard border
If only those who incite violence did not do so

You need a history lesson or ten.

I also wish for world peace and an end to poverty.

Brexit can’t be used as an opportunity to test out the stability of the peace process. Too high risk.

I don’t need a history lesson jas

I just don’t think being beholden to the threat of trouble in NI over Brexit will end well for anyone

I just don’t think being beholden to the threat of trouble in NI over Brexit will end well for anyone

Its not about being beholden to anything, it's about not deliberately stirring the pot.

We've a peace of sorts, we should building on this process not trying to antagonise and provoke..

bellini I simply asked you why you feel the wishes of Leavers come below those who wish to incite violence in NI?

Bearbehind there are peace walls that still divide Catholic estates from protestant in cities like Belfast. It's easy to say why can't you have a peaceful border but you haven't lived through what people in NI have lived through. A lot have lost loved one in violent ways. Things are changing but the Troubles weren't that long ago and some people are still entrenched in their beliefs. The wounds are still quite raw for those whose lived through what was a war. To stick a hard border would be unfair to people, it would cause chaos in their day to day lives and like whyamidoin posted it would deny a lot of Irish the rights they have being granted. Both sides of the border counties don't want a border. The GFA agreement brought peace and stability to people and businesses. Brexit cannot be allowed to destroy that.

@Bearbehind - you’ve not answered my question as to why a peaceful border isn’t possible

The question you asked was: "Surely it should be ok for people to move backwards and forwards, at will, without any trouble*, not why a peaceful border isn't possible.Trouble is not just violence, trouble can also mean difficulty.

I explained that a hard border would destroy the economy. It is not possible to have free and open movement across the border if there is a hard border. Checks will be required on goods, animals and people. That will destroy the economy. Milk from the north goes south to the dairy, cream then crosses back up again to be used in products in the north. A hard border requiring checks will interfere with that.

If an ambulance or fire engine is called in a border county, it can come from either side of the border. A hard border that requires checks is certainly going to interfere with that.

Everything you’ve listed above should be possible even with a hard border

No, that is not the case. A hard border, by definition, does not allow free movement back and forth without checks. By preventing this cross-border cooperation, you are denying Irish citizens the rights they have been granted under the GFA

Re your follow-up question, that you then claimed was your original question, why a peaceful border isn’t possible

Ideally, a peaceful border would be in place. However, there are people in NI, from both sides of the political divide, who will use violence to achieve their aims. That is wrong.

However, regardless of whether there is a threat of violence or not, deciding to break an international peace treaty simply because it is inconvenient, is wrong. It shows a distinct lack of integrity. If that is the approach you support, then at least have the honesty to admit that you don't care if you are denying Irish citizens in NI the rights they have been granted under the GFA, rather than suggesting that it's all about not giving in to the terrorists.

Leavers should compromise to leave but in a way that protects the one good thing we can all be proud of.
And the fact they don't want to is contemptible.

@Bearbehind - Why do you blame those who you feel don’t care about the GFA more than those who can’t maintain peace without it?

Why do you feel that those who want to leave with no deal should be allowed to remove the civil rights of people living in NI?

*I just don’t think being beholden to the threat of trouble in NI over Brexit will end well for anyone

You are using the threat of violence to justify removing the civil rights of people living in NI. Whose civil rights are next on the list?

Why do you feel that those who want to leave with no deal should be allowed to remove the civil rights of people living in NI?

I don’t - I think peace shouldn’t be as fragile as it is and the blame lies with those who make it so.

Because right now this mess needs sorting
No deal and we cut all the ties and start on a clean sheet .

You are using the threat of violence to justify removing the civil rights of people living in NI. Whose civil rights are next on the list?

I’m doing the complete opposite - I’m saying the threat of violence is the issue here, not leaving the EU.

"I don’t - I think peace shouldn’t be as fragile as it is and the blame lies with those who make it so."
Well it fucking well is. So what's your suggestion?

But Mummmy a no deal would mean a hard border between ROI and NI. We can’t throw NI under a bus.

@Bearbehind - I don’t - I think peace shouldn’t be as fragile as it is and the blame lies with those who make it so.

I'm not asking about peace. I'm referring to the civil rights granted to Irish people living in NI under the GFA. The can now identify as Irish. British or both. As part of that agreement, cross-border co-operation and all-island bodies have been set up. A hard border prevents these from working, thus denying Irish the rights they have been granted under the GFA.

By advocating no deal, you are advocating for the removal of these right.

Well it fucking well is. So what's your suggestion?

A border in the sea which will piss off the other half of this debate......oh, hang on......that might end badly too.

No deal and we cut all the ties and start on a clean sheet

No we do not, as well you should know.

We would be into sorting out monies, citizens rights and our trading relationship, it will take years.

@Bearbehind - I’m doing the complete opposite - I’m saying the threat of violence is the issue here, not leaving the EU.

Nope. You are saying let's go ahead with a hard border as we don't want to give in to the threat of violence. You are saying it is acceptable to strip people of the rights they have been granted under the GFA because you don''t want to give in to the threat of violence.

Whether a hard border leads to violence or not is irrelevant to the impact of a hard border on the rights granted to Irish people in NI under the GFA. A hard border removes those rights.