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Brexit

Westministenders: Is Boris going to give us one ?

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2019 09:50

A General Election that is

Well, only when Corbyn lets him, not when BJ wants it.
So far as PM, BJ has lost 4 votes to zero wins - which is a record

BJ has been spraying around promises of billions in spending,
like a tomcat drunk on catnip, spraying the Magic Money Tree

SPADs have been forbidden to take holiday before 31 October
and of course that coup / prorogue to force No Deal and wank off the authoritarian vote

The prorogue also robs him of 5 more weeks time in which he could have forced a GE.
Whoops

BJ / Cum would ideally want a GE right after Brexit
to have achieved their No Deal, maximise their votes from the Faragist
.... all before the No Deal chickens come home to roost

Of course, as PM, BJ - or is Cummings the real PM ? - could change any pre-Brexit date that the naive think they have agreed

The Rebel Alliance have options to stop him:

BJ has sacked 21 MPs, so if the Alliance unite, they outnumber Con+DUP
Another Whoops
However, they have different aims and find it difficult to compromise
Some might prefer No Deal rather than the bogeyman Corbyn, because they don't do compromise

They could use a VoNC to replace BJ by Corbyn,
who would then ask for an extension and call a GE before Brexit
Stopping No Deal that way depends on Corbyn winning the GE - a HUGE gamble

Maybe he can use the slogan
"Brexit is the Tory project to make you forget the other Tory project: Austerity"

while to appeal to some pp, the Tories can use
"Vote to protect the bonuses of rich bankers"

Or if nothing happens by 19 October, MPs can vote for the WA, which would definitely stop No Deal
But that would require the HoC to make a decision - and it has spent several months avoiding that

Tick tock, No Deal is coming

Meanwhile, talks are ongoing for a Tory-Brexit party pact.
Reportedly, the hedge-fund donors won't fund a Tory GE campaign unless there is a pact:

www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-election-pact-between-johnson-and-farage-edges-closer/

How much money does it take to buy the UK governing party ? 🤔

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chomalungma · 07/09/2019 12:39

he red lines were allegedly what people wanted from Brexit - you remove those, get a worse deal than we have currently and then what

See - you think it's a worse deal and there are people who think it's a better deal.

Who gets to decide if it's a worse or a better deal?

GeistohneGrenzen · 07/09/2019 12:39

pmk and thanks BCF

merrymouse · 07/09/2019 12:40

But this shambles just has to stop and the only way forward is a general election were the people decide what they want!!

Unless the election results in a hung parliament.

Bearbehind · 07/09/2019 12:40

That is leaving, isn't it?

In name only

And the question is then how many people will actually notice

I suspect the answer is a lot more than would have gone if we’d gone for that option straight away

I don’t think for a second the hard core Leavers would let it lie if we are still beholden to most EU rules, unable to make those mythical trade deals and most importantly have FOM

Bearbehind · 07/09/2019 12:42

See - you think it's a worse deal and there are people who think it's a better deal.

I don’t know anyone who thinks BINO is a better deal than we have now

It might be better than no deal but it’s certainly not better than the terms we have now

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2019 12:43

"what is the point in leaving at all"

Leave campaigners like Farage, Patterson were saying before the ref things like:
"why can't we be like Norway" and
"only an idiot would leave the SM"

and many Leavers voted for that sort of Brexit, not No Deal
Add on the Remainers who would accept it as a compromise and it would satisfy a substantial majority of all voters

Countries like Norway have to obey only around 25% of EU laws, because they are in EFTA, not the EU
The UK would need a customs arrangement for frictionless trade
and would request other concessions like financial passporting for the city
In return, the UK would drop red lines

That would be a compromise
A narrow Leave result - which may now be 52:48 the other way - is no mandate for No Deal

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JustAnotherPoster00 · 07/09/2019 12:43

Tory Fibs
@ToryFibs
·
42m
Labour’s 10 point Brexit Deal in 1 tweet

• A Customs Union
• Single Market Access
• Shadow EU Regs
• No Backstop
• No NI/ROI hard border
• No Regulatory Divergence
• Frictionless Trade
• Skills Based Immigration
• Workers’ Rights enhanced
• EU Co-Op on crime, sci & env

chomalungma · 07/09/2019 12:43

I don’t think for a second the hard core Leavers would let it lie if we are still beholden to most EU rules, unable to make those mythical trade deals and most importantly have FOM

There are hard core leavers, hard core remainers - and many people in the middle who are somewhere in between who really would be happy just to get this over with, to move on and to have a great relationship with our nearest trading bloc and frictionless trade,

Who said anything about FOM?

Singasonga · 07/09/2019 12:44

That's always been the problem, hasn't it? When I was deciding my vote, the thing that swung me towards Remain was that most of the softer options reduced our influence over the superpower next door. What would be the point of leaving a group where we were one of the big voices, only to just take rules form them?

And then I thought about what the UK would actually be if we crashed out and alienated the superpower next door, and I realised the only thing we could do would be do go cap-in-hand to a different superpower and beg for protection.

I am willing to believe that people voted for a soft exit because they don't think of the EU as a superpower and so genuinely didn't realise that they are the only game in town, regionally. I do not for one second believe that the "no dealers" in the population really want a volatile currency, increasingly limited health service, poor food standards and an erosion of workers' rights.

Seeing their "democratic choice" used against them like this used to make me angry, but now I'm just numb. Between their howls for destruction and the antics of the government this week, I'm going to hold my nose and vote for Corbyn. I'd rather vote Lib Dem for their consistent Remain stance, but I'll go with Labour to have a chance of kicking out my ERG MP and sticking it to BoJo/Cummings.

Honestly I think that ship has sailed, sadly, when the referendum was put to the people as simple leave/remain in the first place. There’s too much anger about politicians not respecting the people and gaming the system to not have it there.

I keep hearing this sort of sentiment, and I'm sick of it. The people were sold a pup. They are never getting what they voted for, especially if we do crash out. No matter WHAT happens their trust is gone and it will never come back, so why destroy the country paying lip service to them?

Bearbehind · 07/09/2019 12:45

Who said anything about FOM?

How do you proposed to remove FOM but retain SM and CU?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 07/09/2019 12:45

It really isnt better than Remain but we all knew nothing is going to be

chomalungma · 07/09/2019 12:46

I don’t know anyone who thinks BINO is a better deal than we have now

The best deal is to stay in the EU.
Failing that, then have as close a relationship with our nearest neighbour.

Control FOM - and improve public services for those left behind and I bet that would satisfy most people.

chomalungma · 07/09/2019 12:46

How do you proposed to remove FOM but retain SM and CU

That's up to the EU negotiators, isn't it...

tobee · 07/09/2019 12:46

I'm not sure leavers will ever be satisfied really. Even leaving No Deal, it will be the fault of MPs, remainers, the EU, experts, those who don't beleave enough when things go wrong. As we've said before. Many, many times.

Singasonga · 07/09/2019 12:47

...and I should add that I do not want and election until the Tories have been forced, kicking and screaming, to clean up their shit. So nothing before Christmas, because they have a lot of work to do proving they've got any sort of practical outcome in mind for the country, not just for their hedgie mates.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2019 12:48

Bear No Brexit is better than the terms we have now
We always be losing something

Leave campaigners claimed we could keep the EU benefits without responsibilities

So they've promised something that can't be delivered, by May, Corbyn, BJ or anyone else

We can never get something that satisfies everyone - too late
So we have to find what most people could live with, not necessarily their first preference

Polls suggest those with No Deal as first choice are only about 30%
That only rises if Leavers are pushed into a chocie of Remain vs No Deal

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JustAnotherPoster00 · 07/09/2019 12:49

Enforcing existing immigration rules would be a good start, much better than a woman who has been in this country for 55 years but has 'insufficient evidence'

PoliticsJOE
@PoliticsJOE_UK
· 20h
“I always felt British, a citizen with equal rights. Then overnight my world was turned upside down."

Anna has lived in Britain since she was 18 months old, but has been denied citizenship due to "insufficient evidence."

twitter.com/i/status/1169997424842158080

Bearbehind · 07/09/2019 12:49

That's up to the EU negotiators, isn't it...

Who have already agreed it is not possible - hence this mess now

This is exactly the problem with supporting a Labour Brexit - it would just be Groundhog Day

SM/CU are not compatible with no FOM and as immigration is what matters the most to the largest majority of Leavers that’s a problem

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2019 12:53

"How do you propose to remove FOM"

The referendum was on Leave / Remain, not FOM

Many Leave campaigners were talking of Norway and staying in the SM
That means FOM
Surely professional politicians in a national campaign knew this and were misleading the public
So, false pretences

Is FOM even still such an issue now, since the fall in E27 immigration already has been replaced by immigration from the rest of the world

  • which we have always been able to stop
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JustAnotherPoster00 · 07/09/2019 12:54

immigration is what matters the most to the largest majority of Leavers that’s a problem

Weve been assured many many times over different threads by Leavers that it wasnt about immigration

WhatwouldScoobyDoo · 07/09/2019 12:54

PMK

I agree with TiP, smile and others that we need to aim for compromise and a way forward without becoming more divided.

I’ve had personal angst over the last few weeks when people I love & respect have come out with statements such as “ That Boris, he’s a one isn’t he, he’s just what we need.”

These people live in a different “bubble” to mine. I can even hear their friends’ intonation in phrases like this. They are repeating what they are hearing all around them.

I have decided to reply only with a cheerful “that’s rubbish”. We have disagreed over politics in the past without it being any more divisive than that.

If we could remove the threat and terrible danger of no deal (by signing the WA?) could we not then all return to having differences of opinion over the exact end outcome which don’t need to be so poisonous and divisive? Just like we have always had political differences?

(Don’t know if I have expressed this very well..)

chomalungma · 07/09/2019 12:54

Who have already agreed it is not possible - hence this mess now

SM/CU are not compatible with no FOM and as immigration is what matters the most to the largest majority of Leavers that’s a problem

There are plenty of models out there to give us as good as access to the EU as possible, whilst maintaining FOM and ensuring the Irish border is not an issue.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2019 13:00

When a referendum doesn't have FOM in the question, it is difficult to decide how many voted against FOM

A compromise to bring the country together deosn't have to mean what a majority of Leavers demand, but what a majority of ALL voters would accept

btw, BJ always seems to have been in favour of FOM, for the City especially and not just highpaid workers
As Mayor, he also suggested amnest for illegal immigrants - these would be from outside the EU

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Bearbehind · 07/09/2019 13:01

This thread has gone into a bit of a parallel universe in my view / people are talking as of anything is possible and we can pretty much start over with negotiations

That’s just odd in my view as it completely ignores reality

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2019 13:03

I agree, we have seen so many Leavers saying it was NOT about immigration

Also, polls show that Brits have a big majority in favour of FOM - but for Brits to be able to move to the EU !
Maybe now some more people accept that FOM has to go both ways

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