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Brexit

Westminstenders: Skullduggery Fatigue

959 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2019 22:19

A recap as best I can

Johnson-Cummings wanted an election. Their entire strategy was based on getting one before 31st Oct to get a majority to force No Deal through and retain power for 5 years.

They protested they didn't. They poked and tried to provoke and outrage in order to get one

But the trap was spotted.

The Commons instead voted to give power to parliament to control the timetable in order to try and block no deal.

This came at a high price for 21 Tory rebels who have been kicked out of the party ungraciously and without an ounce of the respect that the HoC usually demands despite differences of opinion and its pantomime jeers.

This combined with Johnson's prorogation (and what seems to be lying to the Queen in order to get her consent if the Cherry case to block prorogation seems to be suggesting) has shocked and enraged Tory 'moderates'.

Johnson under estimated the size of the rebellion and his threat to deselect seemed to spur on rebels rather than deter them, as it made them perceive Johnson as a threat to democracy and the constitution more than if he'd taken a softer line.

He also seems to have underestimated the internal reaction amongst those who remained loyal to the party. One MP is on record saying Johnson can't take his vote for granted. At the 1922 committee MPs who stood up for the rebels were cheered whilst those who stood up for government jeered. Johnson blamed his whip for the expulsions rather than take responsibility himself which again hasn't gone down well. The chair of the One Nation Tories Damien Green has written to the PM demanding their reinstatement so all is definitely not well. Johnson has ploughed on with the selection of the rebels replacements nonetheless. The idea was to strengthen Johnson and end the internal tory civil war but his heavy handed approach doesn't seem to have settled matters yet at least. Tonight Caroline Spelman joined the rebellion but hasn't been expelled from the party, which makes last nights hard line look even worse.

The bill to block no deal passed the Commons and has gone to the lords. The Kinnock Amendment to try and return May's deal passed in an act of government skullduggery designed to sink the bill completely but thus does not seem to have paid off and may yet provide an emergency escape route from no deal. It highlights the extent Johnson will use dirty tricks.

Tonight the vote was for a GE. Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act the government needed 2/3rds of parliament to trigger one.

Labour, figuring it was a trap, havent bitten. Instead they have made preconditions to triggering one.

This scuppers Johnson's plan and its not clear where we go from here. Johnson us a lame duck but has the power of the PM's office.

He can create a vision that it's the people v parliament to help him for when we do have a GE which is now all but inevitable. This is dangerous.

But no deal is dangerous too.

The stakes are high.

Hopefully the no deal bill will pass the lords though may be hampered all weekend by filibustering.

It returns to the Commons on Monday where it needs to pass.

Then we are expecting prorogation to commence.

For Johnson who needed a GE on the 15th, Monday is his last day to trigger it. Expect more dirty tricks but he's running out of options

Come mid October the pressure for a deal will ramp up on Johnson. No deal is still the default but he will have to be seen to be doing something, not just blaming everyone else and taking no responsibility himself.

Will prorogation go ahead in these circumstances? It's now open to debate...

Johnson-Cummings strategy still could work, but it's substantially weakened and now Johnson will have to do something more radical and possibly illegal to get his own way.

And that General Election before the fall out if No Deal is still his ultimate goal as its his gateway to retain power...

... Expect even more fireworks to come.

OP posts:
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DtPeabodysLoosePants · 05/09/2019 07:00

PMK

ClashCityRocker · 05/09/2019 07:01

Obviously, all bets are off with a general election.

But I don't think that it's going to happen this side of 31 Oct.

I'm also not confident that the EU will give us an extension. What's changed since the last one? Alright, we have Johnson instead of May. But the situation hasn't changed.

DGRossetti · 05/09/2019 07:03

Interesting analysis of the semantics of "back" an election ... it would be a shame if Boris were to be flannelled by the careful use of words from a politician. But I guess Tories might be vulnerable to such a tactic, since they've made it a hallmark of their politics to only every state things plainly, and not use weasel phrases and words to say one thing while intending the other ....

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/09/04/checkmate-labour-rejects-johnson-s-election-gambit

It's hard to imagine where he goes from here. Boris Johnson had clearly wanted an election. You knew he wanted it from the first time he said he definitely wouldn't hold one. Everything he'd done since the Tory leadership contest seemed to corroborate that, from testing Facebook ads, to finessing attack lines, to announcing policy measures on policing and education.

Most of the events during the summer seemed to fall in line with that strategy. He needed an excuse and he was fairly certain some development in parliament would provide him with one. But tonight he finally pulled the trigger and nothing came out.

He needed a two-thirds majority under the Fixed-terms-Parliament-Act. But Labour rejected the request. In the end the vote came in at 298 to 56, with the opposition party abstaining.

He lashed out as best he could. "I can only speculate about the reasons for his hesitation," Johnson said of Jeremy Corbyn. "The obvious reason is that he doesn't think he will win."

But in truth, he seemed completely stuck. What could he do now? He has no majority. It left with Phillip Lee to walk across the floor of the House yesterday, and then bottomed out into the centre of the earth when the prime minister withdrew the whip from the 21 Tory MPs who rebelled against him in the emergency debate which followed.

The ensuing legislation shuttled through its stages in the Commons today. Brexit-supporting peers will try to kill it in the Lords, but the chances are pretty good that it can be secured by the end of the week or the start of the next.

It would force the prime minister to extend Article 50 by October 19th if he doesn't get a deal. Johnson has promised he would never do that. But what avenue does he have if he cannot fight an election before then? To break the law? To resign? Neither option can seem particularly attractive.

Politics now becomes an extremely delicate game of strategy, conducted to impossibly high stakes. Labour has spotted the trap and does not want to fall into it. But it also knows that it will be vulnerable to the argument that it is frightened of going to the country. How long can it withstand?

If it goes too quickly, it hands Johnson exactly the thing he wants: to go for an election while he still has a bounce, with a pre-prepared parliament-versus-the-people message, while being sufficiently mercurial on no-deal that he can neutralise the threat from the Brexit party.

Allowing the vote to happen before late October would also fail to prevent no-deal, because a new Johnson administration would be in place in time to deliver it.

"The offer an election today is like the offer of an apple to Snow White from the wicked queen," Corbyn concluded. "What he is offering is not an apple, or even an election, but the poison of no-deal. Let this bill pass and gain Royal Assent, then we will back an election."

On the face of it, this seemed ruinous. The bill will probably get Royal Assent in the next few days. If Corbyn then immediately accepted one of Johnson's requests for an election, it would take place before late October. A Johnson majority, if he got one, could then be used to repeal the rebel legislation and secure no-deal.

But there was a little more wriggle room in there than that. Saying he would "back" an election is not the same as saying he would activate it. Could he block an election during the tiny gap between Royal Assent and prorogation starting? He'd then be clear for the next five weeks, with Johnson's own plan to silence parliament now working against him.

Or perhaps a no-confidence vote could be used. This would start a 14-day period in which to try and form a government, either through himself as prime minister or someone like Harriet Harman. They could then extend Article 50 and then hold an election. And importantly the process would kill more time.

There is space to work with in Corbyn's statement. It's still not clear which way he'll go. And there's a sustained effort from within the Labour party to stop him falling into Johnson's trap.

What happens now will all be about pressure. If Corbyn feels it is building against him and the public see him as cowardly, he'll pull the trigger. If it starts to feel like politicians are playing clever-clever games over the heads of the electorate, he'll pull the trigger.

But that goes both ways. This week showed just how badly Johnson could be made to squirm in a trap made of his own misjudged strategy. He looked increasingly like he was being damaged and weakened. If that pressure seems to be having a serious effect, it will hold Corbyn back.

Either way, we'll probably know how it pans out by early next week. The result could decide which way the Brexit story finally ends.

IrenetheQuaint · 05/09/2019 07:06

PMK

DGRossetti · 05/09/2019 07:07

I'm also not confident that the EU will give us an extension. What's changed since the last one? Alright, we have Johnson instead of May. But the situation hasn't changed.

If we went to the EU with a general election timetabled for after 31st, they would grant an extension - that's been "agreed" verbally and stated publicly. The problem is that Boris needs to ask for one. Which then blows a hole in his "tough man/no-deal" bullshit that he was hoping to use to hoover up votes from the BXP.

I hope it's dawned on Corbyn that Labour has far less to fear from the BXP than the Tories. The Venn diagram of Labour voters who would also vote BXP doesn't have a big intersection.

DGRossetti · 05/09/2019 07:12

My heart would love revoke and remain, but I don't see how it is politically feasible.

It would have to emerge as the logical conclusion after considering that any withdrawal agreement and subsequent renegotiations would only take years and leave us in a less favourable position than we are now. Someone wakes up and says "you know what ? This seems an awful lot of effort to put the UK in a worse position than now ......"

Election or not, the UK will still end up having to agree the backstop in some form or another. It really is inescapable. It's like being trapped in a maze, with only one way out. A maze the UK chose to enter, despite all the warning signs (so fuck all sympathy from anyone else in the world.)

CatteStreet · 05/09/2019 07:14

'My heart would love revoke and remain, but I don't see how it is politically feasible. And I suspect that it would also ultimately be damaging (less so than a no deal brexit, of course). The issues are not going to go away and I think that a later general election would lead to a rise of the brexit party. We would have the threat of leaving hanging over our head constantly.

Going for the withdrawal agreement seems the only sensible option now. Perhaps with a rapid rejoin if public mood really does shift - which it might, if people feel we have actually brexited. I believe Barnier has suggested that a rejoin within the period set by the withdrawal agreement would be made straightforward.

Anything to avoid no deal.'

This is pretty much how I have come to feel.

wheresmymojo · 05/09/2019 07:17

Unfortunately, as those living in the EU have already suggested, we have seriously outstayed our welcome now.

All the Leavers harping on about how the EU 'want to keep us in' are laughably wrong. Except I'm not laughing Sad

Can't blame them...

FT article here: www.ft.com/content/110207f2-cea2-11e9-b018-ca4456540ea6

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2019 07:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

NotaRealLawyer · 05/09/2019 07:24

Checking in. Great summary Red . Appreciate everyone's excellent contributions.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2019 07:26

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

fedup21 · 05/09/2019 07:28

It’s worrying the way the WA-which everyone agreed in March was a really shite deal-is now being nostalgically talked about as the only possible way out of this mess.

orangeshoebox · 05/09/2019 07:29

pmk

chomalungma · 05/09/2019 07:29

I wonder what Brexit policies will be on the manifestos if we come to an election?

CrunchyCarrot · 05/09/2019 07:38

Thanks Red for yet another thread! Thanks to everyone else too because I severely doubt I'd have the foggiest what was going on otherwise. Grin

So glad the filibustering is over. Wonder what next week holds?

M15sterPip · 05/09/2019 07:39

PMK

Myriade · 05/09/2019 07:50

It’s worrying the way the WA-which everyone agreed in March was a really shite deal-is now being nostalgically talked about as the only possible way out of this mess.

I dont think it worrying. More of the realisation that there is NO OTHER OPTION.

People (on both sides) have been fixated on trying to dealing with the referendum results far too long. The result is that they stayed stuck at the start 'Shall we go/shall we stay?' whilst TM moved her boat and decided of the red lines. If anything THIS is what should have been discussed during these 3 years because now they are the only thing the UK has.
And tbh I dont think there is and there was any other option. The country was and still divided in two. The other two options of No Deal or Remain/Revoke were never acceptable (because the vote was basically 50/50). A WA is the only thing that can be (even if its midly) acceptable to both sides.

Its also worth rmembering that the WA is JUST THE START. The final agreement still needs to be negociated. The only issue for me is that the UK has now thourpoughly pissed the EU off. Unless we finally have someone who has a sense of direction and isnt a buffoon, they are not going to be inclined to help the UK.

wheresmymojo · 05/09/2019 07:53

Not sure if already posted but...

"Breaking news. Tory party members who do not support a no Deal Brexit and the expulsion of 21 of their most senior and distinguished MPs will also be expelled from the party. ‘You are not welcome in our party and you are not welcome to vote for us’ declares @BorisJohnson"

ContinuityError · 05/09/2019 07:53

PMK with My Right Honourable Friend (that I always have to give way to)

Westminstenders: Skullduggery Fatigue
wheresmymojo · 05/09/2019 07:58

Duh - ignore my last post. My brain is too slow in the morning to recognise this as satire!

Probably telling that my initial reaction was that it was true!

Hoooo · 05/09/2019 07:59

The WA is simply the start of the process towards a deal.

It's not great. But thanks to successive Brexit ministers doing fuck all for 3 years it's all we have.

It's a start.

And if remainers like us are prepared to see it enacted then imagine how utterly pissed off most people are!

The UK needs something to take back to the EU.

Bojo/domcum have nothing. They never did.

If labour have any sense they will sit tight and let the Tories implode.

The good thing about passing the WA is that it atops BXP in it's tracks.

We're leaving. You won. Right?

ContinuityError · 05/09/2019 08:01

Joanna Cherry just retweeting a Jo Maugham thread on No10 skulduggery to hide the real reason for prorogation - involving the use of WhatsApp and burner phones.

Lisette1940 · 05/09/2019 08:01

I've long thought Red should get an MBE.

mathanxiety · 05/09/2019 08:03

Wrt BJ's use of the word 'Frit' that got the goat of a poster from the previous thread - this was a word famously used by Margaret Thatcher. Interesting that Johnson has used it.

Myriade · 05/09/2019 08:03

@wheresmymojo, WHAT?!?

Are we now in full dictatorship mode with purge inside The Party???