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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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PerkingFaintly · 02/09/2019 10:15

PMK, if I may. I've mostly hidden behind the sofa and only peeped at these threads through my fingers, but I think it's time to face the full blast.

Flowers to you wonderful regular posters for these threads, especially RTB.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 10:20

Another week of this reaction Wink

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
prettybird · 02/09/2019 10:27

From the Government official statement about the launch of Get Ready for Brexit :

Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Michael Gove said:

Ensuring an orderly Brexit is not only a matter of national importance, but a shared responsibility.

Well he can fuck right off with the "shared responsibility" Angry The No Deal Brexit that they are delivering is their responsibility and their responsibility alone Hmm

wheresmymojo · 02/09/2019 10:28

I have to go into a meeting don't they know there's more important things to do like Mumsnet but there is a massive but really, really interesting thread on Twitter about the BJ/Cummings play from Simon Wardley here: twitter.com/swardley/status/1167177722843553804?s=21

Pretty much saying the same as this thread...still worth a read though

TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 10:32

PMK! Argh!

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 10:46

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/rebel-mps-leaked-motion-brexit?__twitter_impression=true
Rebel MPs Are Aiming To Pass Legislation Blocking A No-Deal Brexit In Just A Few Hours
BuzzFeed News has been leaked a draft of the motion drawn up by Oliver Letwin, Dominic Grieve and Keir Starmer to force the prime minister to the EU ask for a Brexit extension if he doesn't have a deal before October 31.

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Camomila · 02/09/2019 10:47

"shared responsibility" sure, tell that to everyone who hasn't got settled status yet/got pre-settled status when they've lived here 10/20/30+ years.
The only things keeping me here are my British DH and DC. If DH agreed to move I would be overjoyed.

And how can they put the burden of "shared responsibility" on people that are worried about their unstockpilable temperature-controlled medications?

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 10:47

Rebel MPs led by Oliver Letwin, Dominic Grieve and Keir Starmer will attempt to rush legislation blocking a no-deal Brexit through Parliament in just a few hours, according to a draft version of their motion leaked to BuzzFeed News.

In a manoeuvre that would be far bolder and more radical than the one that allowed MPs to take control of the order paper in April, the draft motion would give the House of Commons just hours to pass the law and make it difficult for MPs to table considered amendments, either to the motion or to the legislation to block no-deal.

BuzzFeed News understands the rebels have been divided on whether to attempt to pass the motion and legislation in one day on Tuesday, or over two days on Tuesday and Wednesday. A source said some MPs want to get the bill through Parliament over one day in order to hamper government efforts to block the legislation. Another source said it was likely to clear Parliament on Wednesday.

When MPs last took control of the order paper in April, they were given an opportunity to put forward their own plans for how to use the time they had granted themselves. In addition, the bill they advanced was passed over two days

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 10:48

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
NEW: @Sandbach confirms to @adamboultonSKY that she’ll vote against the govt and is prepared to lose her job if that’s what it takes to block a No Deal exit. “I stood on manifesto that said we’d leave with a deal and in an orderly way.” Says PM should bring back May deal

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 10:50

Alliance Youth @allianceyouthni
🚨 Alliance is surging in the polls 🚨

New polling suggests three DUP MP’s are at risk to Alliance candidates in a snap general election. 💛

#DemandBetter #StopBrexit

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 10:51

m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/three-dup-mps-at-risk-in-snap-general-election-polls-suggest-38456413.html?__twitter_impression=true
Three DUP MPs at risk in snap general election, polls suggest

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DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 11:26

"shared responsibility" is one of those soundbites that seeks to make someone elses problem yours.

Usually trotted out when a Big Boss has fucked up Big Time (is there any other way ?) and calls a meeting urging everyone to save their ass "pull together"

To be honest, I'm a little disappointed that Gove didn't have the bigly man balls to just say We're all in this together. Hopefully that might worry a few Gove-a-philes who must start doubting the size of their heroes judgement ?

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 11:28

PMK. Thanks Red. Watching JC on BBC News. I'm so upset this morning. This whole thing is such a fucking mess. Corbyn's just talking about what Labour would do nationally rather than internationally. Though he did speak about how bad No Deal would be, and how it's being driven by "the elite". Talking about democracy a lot too. In the workplace. Confused Hmm

tava63 · 02/09/2019 11:29

Link below to an interesting authoritative legal analysis of the cases that are being taken against the PM's decision to prorogue Parliament :

ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/prorogation-constitutional-principle-and-law-fact-and-causation/

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 11:30

Lots from JC about the north too. Looking to win back those Brexit votes.

MmeBufo · 02/09/2019 11:30

pmk

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 11:30

bellini 💐 I hope your worries prove unnecessary

ImNotYourGranny · 02/09/2019 11:31

This new government website, tailoring information on how to prepare for brexit to you personal circumstances is fabulous.

As a brit living in another EU state I'm particularly vulnerable to the effects of brexit. I'm worried about my home, my husbands job, access to healthcare, access to social security, my uk pensions, travelling with my dogs, crossing the nearby internal EU border and that's the tip of my worry iceberg.

And the government's advice? 'Apply for residency in the EU state you live in'. That's it in it's entirety. Or to put it another way, 'fuck off, you're not our concern'.

Utter fucking bastards.

ImNotYourGranny · 02/09/2019 11:34

And if that wasn't insulting enough, I can't apply for residency in the EU state as live in as I'm currently an EU citizen so it's not possible.

Fuckwits.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 11:35

iPhone version of "Home Office" (i.e. Dutch) app coming.

Soon.

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/02/eu_settled_status_app_to_be_available_on_iphones_from_october/

prettybird · 02/09/2019 11:36

I'm musing that if an Act is passed but BlowJob enacts his cunning plan to refuses to arrange for it to get Royal Assent so that it doesn't officially become law......is there anyone else who could bypass him and take it to the Queen? An "alternative" meeting of the Privy Council? The Speaker, as the representative of the House of Commons?

And if so, could or would the Queen refuse to accept it?

I know that in practice it's not the Queen who directly sees all the Acts and that someone else does it in her name - but presumably she could Confused

lonelyplanetmum · 02/09/2019 11:38

Random thought... but remember when May popped up with regular little podium lecturn moments at various stages to speak to the people. I doh d them annoying at the time but now..

Wonder what Johnson's next podium moment will be? GE announcement ?

flouncyfanny · 02/09/2019 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 11:39

Granny I've assumed since late 2016 that I can only rely on the govt of Germany, where I live and the EU Parliament to look after my interests

I know their priority is their own citizens, but that is still better than the total lack of interst and engagement from the UK govt

flouncyfanny · 02/09/2019 11:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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